I'm late to this discussion but I thought I'd put in a few thoughts based on over 10 years of experience creating websites and doing related work, mostly for small non-profits, very small businesses and some academic groups. To me a key question is are you preparing these students for dedicated website programming jobs where coding and related tasks are all they will do at their job or are you preparing students for situations where some skill at coding may be helpful in doing a job which also involves may other skills? If the former, others have given better answers than I can. That's important. You can largely ignore what I'm about to say if your goal is to create dedicated coders. But what I'm about to say does apply to the many people who spend a good bit of their job working on a WordPress site, mostly via the WordPress admin interface but occasionally by actually working on the code. I make my living by being good enough at graphic design, coding (html, javaScript, php), WordPress, databases (mySQL), and writing (and running my own business) to be able to handle website projects from start to finish for very small organizations that maybe have a couple thousand dollars to spend and so can't bring in a team of people for their website project or employ a dedicated coder. So that's the lens I'm looking through and what I'm seeing is that everyone seems to be going to WordPress, so WordPress-related skills are likely to be in demand, from simply updating a WordPress site to building a new one to creating new themes and so on. For better or worse, that means php and mySQL. I'm seeing WordPress used everywhere from start-up home businesses to managing the entire website for at least one major state university (and I doubt they are the only one). Knowledge about frameworks (e.g., Symfony) is essentially irrelevant in my world. According to one source I checked WordPress has 59.6% of the CMS market. Next in line is Joomla with 6.7% and Drupal with 4.7%. I'm betting WordPress will keep gaining market share relative to the others. Again, this all depends on what job market your students are aiming for. Dedicated coding jobs probably pay better but there's also the question of how much education it takes to compete for those jobs. Regards, Bruce Hooke _____ From: hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net [mailto:hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net] On Behalf Of Bram Moreinis Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:06 PM To: Paul Bissex; Hidden-Tech Listserv Subject: [Hidden-tech] Help me rewrite an old Programming / Web Development Curriculum? CMS, Language, Frameworks Hi, Folks. I just got a job teaching Programming and Web Development at Pathfinder Vocational Technical High School in Palmer. I love the kids and it's wonderful. I need to immediately re-do the old curriculum, however. They were learning Dreamweaver DHTML (so some Javascript). They learned no databases. They developed project websites with Adobe Muse (the Anti-Coder web tool). And they can't afford Dreamweaver when they leave school, so all of this was dead-end. There are three types of students: those who want to be web developers, those who want to be coders, and those who like computers and want to learn more. They are at all different levels ... so I have to balance what would best set them up to be coders (few will be) with what will best get them doing SOMETHING. The AP Computer Science test is in Java. Last year ONE student out of 10 seemed ready to take it after learning it from a textbook (said the teacher who left). The others tried to learn from textbooks and failed. Obviously Java is quite valid to learn ... but what entry level work in Java can they find? And how to connect it to web development? Obviously they need to learn together, from a teacher (supplemented by online courses like Udacity) - not from textbooks. I need a coherent, cumulative curriculum that goes deep into coding, and addresses both the back end and the front end. Ideally we also learn a CMS so everyone can make SOME kind of website without Dreamweaver. I think I need to teach them: * a server-side coding language - either PHP (because Wordpress), Node.js (because Javascript), Java (because AP Computer Science) or Python (because Python) * a database to connect the language to - MySQL (because Wordpress) or PostgreSQL (because Python) * an associated framework to get comfy with - Symfony (because Drupal and Laravel), etc. * a CMS to get them started - Wordpress (because jobs) ... What is my best grouping of the four? 1. PHP / MySQL / Symfony / Wordpress: enough PHP to make templates and theme files. Many folks want to hire Wordpress developers. But Codecademy says PHP is so unpopular now that they won't update their course in it. I can't find anything on the web about what php framework Wordpress was developed from, but http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/best-php-frameworks says Drupal used components from Symfony, and that Laravel is based on Symfony. 2. Java / MySQL / SpringMVC / dotCMS: only two dotCMS developer jobs on Glassdoor makes me think that won't help them get jobs... but maybe that doesn't matter. SpringMVC seems to be the most popular Java framework. 3. NodeJS / MySQL / Meteor / [Apostrophe]: nobody is looking for Apostrophe. But since we're parlaying Javascript into Node.js and everyone wants to hire mobile app developers, maybe I should push them and leap off the Wordpress bandwagon, leaving Apostrophe for students who can't hack the coding? Meteor seems to be the most popular Node.js framework. 4. Python / PostgreSQL / Django / Wagtail: The problem is that none of these connect to the Javascript or Java that we know have to be part of the course, and that unlike Wordpress, Wagtail is not a way to get jobs. It's better if they know how to do SOMETHING well than how to do many things poorly. What would you advise? Please vote -- and if you have time to explain why, do! Thanks, -Bram -- Martin Bram Moreinis, Designer/Developer http://myinstructionaldesigns.com (413) 829-0355 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_cam paign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free. www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_cam paign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.hidden-tech.net/pipermail/hidden-discuss/attachments/20170925/48d857c1/attachment-0001.html