Fred, thanx for this... At 12:34 PM 12/30/2006, you wrote: >I've also wrestled with the morality of letting my kids download for free. I >second the library as a source of CDs that can be "legally" copied (and how >is that so different from downloading? >For an alternate take on itunes, >see this website: http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/index.html As the person who posted the original questions I've been fascinated by the rising crescendo of responses. All interesting perspectives and interesting emotions. And... many good suggestions. I notice nobody asked clarifying questions before moralizing or giving parenting tips. <chkl> I'll take responsibility for the fact that my question obviously was unclear. I learned a lot and it has just raised more questions... perhaps for you too? Perhaps a better worded question would have been, if downloading or file sharing sites are 'illegal' how / why do those sites still exist? And if they are in some way 'legal' how best to use them? There were prior legal battles and sanctions and they are still here. Why? What's up with that? I'd like to know. My kid found them and asked about them and I didn't have the answer... figured some of you might know. I thought these sites would have died if they were illicit. I have not made a decision about downloading anything yet, but there is no clear answer from the discussion either. Copying CD's from the library or a friends collection, just skirts the 'moral' issue. Someone paid for it once and many users are getting the benefit without the artist getting more royalties. Legal in the sense that nobody would ever be tracked or prosecuted, but still doesn't 'pay' artists. It's just not an online route. It's easy, free and invisible. Perhaps what I've gleaned from this discussion is a concensus that , for the most part, the whole music distribution system... at least all options for getting a single track, (except directly from the artist)... 'stiff' the artist. After reading the link Fred provided above it appears the iTunes IS AS MUCH OF A RIPOFF for artists as most other solutions. I'm not surprised. So, iTunes is legal and feels like there is a token payment to the artist, but it still stiffs them. Most things in life are more complex than they seem and the answers, if there are any, are nuanced. In this case there is a 'legal' issue about what is going on online and also the 'moral' issue of whether artists actually get adequately compensated by their distribution system. Then perhaps there is a more symbolic moral stance about NOT doing certain things in certain ways. While consumers can, perhaps, influence the 'fairness' of the music royalty system, it is a business arrangement between the artists and their business associates, yes? They create all that together in whatever way they do that just as we do with out clients and distributors. So the answer that has come up most often in the group is to use iTunes because it is 'legal', has the appearance of propriety, makes token payment to artists and sends 'the right message' to the children. Thanx. Keep them cards and letters coming... especially if you can answer the question about why download sites even exist if that is all illegal? Which was the question I would have asked had I been clearer. Thanx for bringing me to greater clarity. (Let's not get into the software version of this discussion... I still use Win2K because it's not locked to one box. <chkl> Some would see that as 'wrong' and others as 'heroic.' <g>) Merry Everything and Happy Always David '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Snowmen Fall from Heaven Unassembled '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." --- Winston Churchill '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' "I know God will not give me anything I can't handle. I just wish that He didn't trust me so much." --- Mother Teresa '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' No trees were destroyed by sending this message. However, a significant number of electrons were sorely inconvenienced. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.hidden-tech.net/pipermail/hidden-discuss/attachments/20061231/92976416/attachment-0005.html