From glp at gregperham.com  Thu Sep  5 13:34:11 2019
From: glp at gregperham.com (GLP)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:34:11 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Joomla developer sought
Message-ID: <AC249662-E5FE-4039-97EC-815F322E3D75@gregperham.com>

If any experienced Joomla developers are available for helping with some updates, please contact Julia at julia at juliamintz.com.

Thank you!


From marshall62 at gmail.com  Sat Sep  7 23:08:25 2019
From: marshall62 at gmail.com (David Marshall)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 19:08:25 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Intro to HT
Message-ID: <CAO3r_dt-XbMQj-X74ody+NJXzF_GxW8s9JksHnq9zBT3by4_yg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi:
I just learned about and joined the group.  Here's the intro:

David Marshall:  Software Developer, Artist (painter), and a few other
things.  Right now I'm building an addition on my studio and up to my neck
in 2X4s and plywood. Generally, I like to build stuff be it paintings,
stone walls, buildings, or software.

  I've worked for 21 years at UMass in the Computer Science department
building apps for educational purposes.  This includes web-based online
tutoring systems and desktop/mobile apps.  mathspring.org and
openreview.net were
the last two projects I worked on and are still live.

I know many of the current tools and platforms related to Java, Python, and
Javascript.  I've designed and built more than a handful of complex systems
over the years.   I also teach the Intro to CS: Python programming lab at
Smith College and enjoy mentoring and working with others.

I'm currently looking for flex-time software development work to replace
the UMass job that laid me off August 2019.
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From davidk at cs.umass.edu  Mon Sep  9 21:13:45 2019
From: davidk at cs.umass.edu (David Korpiewski)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 17:13:45 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO expert
Message-ID: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>

I have a client who is looking for an expert in SEO to move things 
around in google so that certain things can bump to the top of the 
google list when one google's her name.?? I don't know if this is 
possible, since I'm an IT guy and not an SEO expert.?? So if you have 
information on who to contact who is good at moving things up and down 
lists in Google, please send me a name and a number and I'll forward it 
onto my client.

Many thanks

David


-- 
--

============================================
David Korpiewski
Senior Software Specialist I
CICS - UMASS Amherst
413-545-4319
============================================


From dede at dedewilson.com  Tue Sep 10 11:14:25 2019
From: dede at dedewilson.com (=?utf-8?B?RMOpZMOpIFdpbHNvbg==?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:14:25 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO expert
In-Reply-To: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>
References: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <5647DC24-5F14-4F25-A7D1-7842CE389104@dedewilson.com>

Casey is amazing. https://www.mediawyse.com <https://www.mediawyse.com/>

D?d?

> On Sep 9, 2019, at 5:13 PM, David Korpiewski via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> 
> I have a client who is looking for an expert in SEO to move things around in google so that certain things can bump to the top of the google list when one google's her name.   I don't know if this is possible, since I'm an IT guy and not an SEO expert.   So if you have information on who to contact who is good at moving things up and down lists in Google, please send me a name and a number and I'll forward it onto my client.
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> David
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> 
> ============================================
> David Korpiewski
> Senior Software Specialist I
> CICS - UMASS Amherst
> 413-545-4319
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

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From smackay at literacyproject.org  Tue Sep 10 13:47:19 2019
From: smackay at literacyproject.org (smackay at literacyproject.org)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:47:19 +0000
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
Message-ID: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>

Hi Folks

I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or  
Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the  
advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the  
platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program  
coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have  
always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail  
merges & formatting.
  So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone  
who has switched people over to one format or the other.
1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or  
especially easy?

2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low  
tech-savvy users?  We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with  
tech.

3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?

Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, &  
one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the  
receiver doesn't have gmail.

Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.

Any input appreciated, thanks.
Sara



From rob at 2disc.com  Tue Sep 10 14:35:32 2019
From: rob at 2disc.com (Rob Laporte)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:35:32 +0000
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO expert
In-Reply-To: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>
References: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <BN8PR14MB24811FDDE178DA1FFF9BDD6EE5B60@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Hi David and HTers,

My firm has specialized in SEO for 22 years, and for a few years now one of our largest and ongoing jobs has been just such work for a celebrity CEO.

I wish I had time to explain more but for now:


  *   The core of "Reputation Management" is SEO because search engine results are usually most damaging and enduring. Sure, social posting and other public replies help, but Google and Bing listings often persist for months and years.
  *   The cost of success in suppressing damaging search engine results varies enormously depending on the accumulated value ("PageRank") of pages ranking well for important searches. UC Davis, for example, famously paid $170,000 to suppress search results showing police pepper-spraying protesting students, and got zero results, absolutely nil (Reported in Time Magazine). That publicity (total PageRank) would have required millions of dollars to countervail.
  *   Even the easiest such jobs will run north of $5000.
  *   If legal action for take-down orders is viable, that is often more cost-effective.
  *   There's a small chance the the EU's "Right to be Forgotten" laws will soon require Google and and other search engines to exclude US results, but don't count on it. US laws are very unlikely to follow the EU because, emerging from the drive to keep freed slaves down, our system aims to jail and otherwise damage lower and now middle class people as much as possible for as long as possible.

In a ~20 minute talk, I can give a general sense of costs, but ultimately one has to assess the SEO strength of the offending web pages in order to budget for success. One takes it in stages because results of the first round of work clarify how much more will be needed.


Best Regards,


Rob Laporte | SEO Specialist, CEO

DISC, Inc. - Making Websites Make Money

413-584-6500

rob at 2disc.com<mailto:rob at 2disc.com>

www.2disc.com<https://www.2disc.com/>

NOTE: Emails can be blocked by spam filters throughout the web. If you don?t get a reply within an expected span of time, please call.


________________________________
From: Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net> on behalf of David Korpiewski via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 5:13 PM
To: email list Hidden-Tech <Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO expert

I have a client who is looking for an expert in SEO to move things
around in google so that certain things can bump to the top of the
google list when one google's her name.   I don't know if this is
possible, since I'm an IT guy and not an SEO expert.   So if you have
information on who to contact who is good at moving things up and down
lists in Google, please send me a name and a number and I'll forward it
onto my client.

Many thanks

David


--
--

============================================
David Korpiewski
Senior Software Specialist I
CICS - UMASS Amherst
413-545-4319
============================================

_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From aaron at taylorwaldman.com  Tue Sep 10 14:46:44 2019
From: aaron at taylorwaldman.com (Aaron Taylor-Waldman)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:46:44 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO expert
In-Reply-To: <5647DC24-5F14-4F25-A7D1-7842CE389104@dedewilson.com>
References: <31ec2ee4-4f34-699a-e06b-9f4f755a888c@cs.umass.edu>
 <5647DC24-5F14-4F25-A7D1-7842CE389104@dedewilson.com>
Message-ID: <CADSHD3unHxoLARw0kVpkpyaCO0v351DrRebvHCifN2=bU3GyaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Alfonso Santaniello ? http://alfonsosantaniello.com/ ? is based in this
region and has expertise in marketing & SEO, among others.

Sam Irwin at https://www.easternstarmarketing.com/ is also great in the
realm of SEO, and based in Colorado.
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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 10 23:35:23 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:35:23 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] * * * Who provides reliable regional courier
 services? * * *
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wrUANNJNFxaydH0kx=YK4ubmGn7EhmH4WYeAKwQrZojEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

Who do you know that offers reliable cost-effective same-day courier
services within a 2 hour radius of the Pioneer Valley?

Thanks,
Deb
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From the at otherrealm.org  Tue Sep 10 23:37:58 2019
From: the at otherrealm.org (Aaron E-J)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:37:58 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
Message-ID: <a54697c6-3b06-3f58-d014-469aac09abf3@otherrealm.org>

There is also Collabrora which is basically LibreOffice in the browser.? 
Best of all, it is free and open source (although to use it for free you 
need to set it up your self, there is also the option to use their 
server in which case it is $18 a year per user, still cheaper than 
google suite)
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/


Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-10 9:47 AM, Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Hi Folks
>
> I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or 
> Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the 
> advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the 
> platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program 
> coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have 
> always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail 
> merges & formatting.
> ?So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone 
> who has switched people over to one format or the other.
> 1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or 
> especially easy?
>
> 2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low 
> tech-savvy users?? We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with 
> tech.
>
> 3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?
>
> Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, & 
> one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the 
> receiver doesn't have gmail.
>
> Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.
>
> Any input appreciated, thanks.
> Sara
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion 
> list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

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From sean at xheightstudios.com  Wed Sep 11 19:54:04 2019
From: sean at xheightstudios.com (=?utf-8?Q?sean=40xheightstudios.com?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:54:04 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] * * * Who provides reliable regional courier
 services? * * *
In-Reply-To: <CAGs6=wrUANNJNFxaydH0kx=YK4ubmGn7EhmH4WYeAKwQrZojEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGs6=wrUANNJNFxaydH0kx=YK4ubmGn7EhmH4WYeAKwQrZojEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.5d7950dc.25a2324f.28f5@xheightstudios.com>

https://abcpkg.com/

ABC Express Delivery Service Inc. is a local, family owned business with over 40 years of industry experience.

?????????????????????????????????  
Websites | Social | SEO | PPC | Hosting  

Xheight?Studios  
Tel:413-725-4332  
sean at xheightstudios.com

On September 10, 2019 at 7:35:23 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss (hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:

Hi folks,

Who do you know that offers reliable cost-effective same-day courier services within a 2 hour radius of the Pioneer Valley??

Thanks,
Deb
_______________________________________________  
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net  
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net  

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.  
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members  
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.  
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members  
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From dlesser at ptraining.com  Thu Sep 12 15:50:23 2019
From: dlesser at ptraining.com (dlesser at ptraining.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 11:50:23 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <a54697c6-3b06-3f58-d014-469aac09abf3@otherrealm.org>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
 <a54697c6-3b06-3f58-d014-469aac09abf3@otherrealm.org>
Message-ID: <000001d56981$cccecbe0$666c63a0$@ptraining.com>

We moved to Office 365. Microsoft's login procedure is a pain, esp. if you have a private 365 account. Once we had that squared away, it was nice to work with Word and Excel and not need remote login. Office 365 administration is harder and requires someone with a better grasp of the MS world.

 

As a heavy user of Office, esp. Word and Excel, I really do not like the Google versions. That said, I am a heavy user and make a lot of use of Excel functions and VBA and of Word's styles, etc. Google Docs are severely underpowered in this regard, tho Sheets has some nice functions that I'd like to see in Excel.

 

BUT,  and a large one too, most users will not need extensive formatting and formulas. In that case, Google is sufficient and much easier to access. MS has on-line group editing, but like much of MS's usability features, it is much harder to use than Google. On-line editing of Google docs is nice, esp. if you are using a tablet. 

 

One downside of Google is that changes are saved automatically so if you screw something up, it is harder to simply abandon the file and start again. There is always Undo, however, but it is hard if others are in the file at the same time. It's also harder to make a copy of a file with links to other files since the links need to be recreated in the new file.

 

The products are not easily cross compatible--you can save Google as Office, but you create a separate file and the original hangs around. Do not think of cross-platform compatibility except at the end of the process when you need to Save As Word to send out a document.

 

So, if your users need power, nothing beats MS Office. Add to it some Excel functions and Word features only available in the on-line version, and if you need them, go Office 365.

 

If your users need basic word processing and basic spreadsheets, Google is the way to go. Tho heavy Word and Excel users will want, and need, the Office products.

 

As they say, Your Mileage May Vary.

 

PS I worked with someone who used LibreOffice about 10 years ago. Given the ?near compatibility? with Word, and after hours of reformatting, I swore off Libre Office forever.  Again, if you need full Office compatibility, you need MS Office. 

 

Don Lesser

139B Damon Road

Northampton, MA 01060

 <mailto:dlesser at ptraining.com> dlesser at ptraining.com

413 387-1040

 

From: Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net> On Behalf Of Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 7:38 PM
To: hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
Subject: Re: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought

 

There is also Collabrora which is basically LibreOffice in the browser.  Best of all, it is free and open source (although to use it for free you need to set it up your self, there is also the option to use their server in which case it is $18 a year per user, still cheaper than google suite)
 <https://www.collaboraoffice.com/> https://www.collaboraoffice.com/





Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-10 9:47 AM, Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss wrote:

Hi Folks 

I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail merges & formatting. 
 So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone who has switched people over to one format or the other. 
1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or especially easy? 

2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low tech-savvy users?  We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with tech. 

3. Any thoughts on the administration of either? 

Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, & one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the receiver doesn't have gmail. 

Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice. 

Any input appreciated, thanks. 
Sara 


_______________________________________________ 
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net 
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>  

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list. 
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members 
page on the Hidden Tech Web site. 
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members 

 

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From shelhoro at gmail.com  Thu Sep 12 16:31:01 2019
From: shelhoro at gmail.com (Shel Horowitz)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:31:01 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
Message-ID: <CADG-Mh1-h4Np26VRD842HJzqqLZ=PF5HFWvfF4BXXnkhG-cw0A@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Don that LibreOffice is an inadequate substitute. Ditto with
Apple's Pages app. Whoever came up with that one clearly never had to write
for a living. Personally, I prefer the interface of the Microsoft products
to Google. I find Google docs incredibly confusing for any actual content
drafting, so it is great for collaboration on things like scheduling
spreadsheets.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to pick one platform as the dominant but
use the other where it excels, no pun intended

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 9:47 AM Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi Folks
>
> I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or
> Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the
> advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the
> platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program
> coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have
> always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail
> merges & formatting.
>   So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone
> who has switched people over to one format or the other.
> 1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or
> especially easy?
>
> 2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low
> tech-savvy users?  We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with
> tech.
>
> 3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?
>
> Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, &
> one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the
> receiver doesn't have gmail.
>
> Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.
>
> Any input appreciated, thanks.
> Sara
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From ncloverbrown at gmail.com  Thu Sep 12 19:33:59 2019
From: ncloverbrown at gmail.com (Nick Clover-Brown)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:33:59 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Moodle developer,
 Moodle administrator - Fazzi / WellSky, Northampton
Message-ID: <CAG4Xfp8bAUMopC1aYgTGWpL27JWjB61jFyhZpQvOOxS8Wov=Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Fazzi Associates (part of WellSky) is looking to get in touch with local
Moodle developers.

We've developed custom plugins ourselves, but are looking to work with
someone local.

We're also interested in leveraging some of the features of Moodle we
haven't touched - 'competencies', 'badges' etc - if there are any Moodle
administrators available for some consults.


Thanks!

Nick Clover-Brown
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From rich at tnrglobal.com  Thu Sep 12 20:41:28 2019
From: rich at tnrglobal.com (Rich@tnr)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:41:28 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
Message-ID: <c5b7e483-bc1b-49d2-923c-7e1c3b325db6@tnrglobal.com>

I've worked with (and still) use all -- and I'd take a serious look at 
Libreoffice -- I get the comments, however as someone running commercial 
and non-profit the real question for me is the need for comparability vs 
cost -- add in how many functions do you need/use.
For example, there is no Access equivalent in google doc.

As for re-formatting, all that relates to the comparability -- who you 
work with and what tools they use you need to interact with,

A side note, you don't need gmail to use google doc - the only issue is 
the 1st time login, and asking someone to response to a invite is really 
not much of a bit deal.

Rich

On 9/10/2019 9:47 AM, Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Hi Folks
>
> I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or 
> Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the 
> advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the 
> platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program 
> coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have 
> always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail 
> merges & formatting.
> ?So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone 
> who has switched people over to one format or the other.
> 1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or 
> especially easy?
>
> 2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low 
> tech-savvy users?? We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with 
> tech.
>
> 3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?
>
> Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, & 
> one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the 
> receiver doesn't have gmail.
>
> Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.
>
> Any input appreciated, thanks.
> Sara
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion 
> list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
-- 
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
      http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com


From markdhamill at gmail.com  Thu Sep 12 21:39:02 2019
From: markdhamill at gmail.com (Mark D. Hamill)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:02 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <c5b7e483-bc1b-49d2-923c-7e1c3b325db6@tnrglobal.com>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
 <c5b7e483-bc1b-49d2-923c-7e1c3b325db6@tnrglobal.com>
Message-ID: <CAB22ZO9KykPDsd4L=s=n-WkCXN8WNTLCzh0=2ybV2df_kT0ckA@mail.gmail.com>

I follow this guy. If seriously interested in LibreOffice, here's his video
on how to make it as Word-like as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0jeYe8iNWo

He also likes NextCloud as an alternative to Google and Microsoft's suites.

https://nextcloud.com

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 5:30 PM Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> I've worked with (and still) use all -- and I'd take a serious look at
> Libreoffice -- I get the comments, however as someone running commercial
> and non-profit the real question for me is the need for comparability vs
> cost -- add in how many functions do you need/use.
> For example, there is no Access equivalent in google doc.
>
> As for re-formatting, all that relates to the comparability -- who you
> work with and what tools they use you need to interact with,
>
> A side note, you don't need gmail to use google doc - the only issue is
> the 1st time login, and asking someone to response to a invite is really
> not much of a bit deal.
>
> Rich
>
> On 9/10/2019 9:47 AM, Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or
> > Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the
> > advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the
> > platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program
> > coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have
> > always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail
> > merges & formatting.
> >  So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone
> > who has switched people over to one format or the other.
> > 1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or
> > especially easy?
> >
> > 2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low
> > tech-savvy users?  We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with
> > tech.
> >
> > 3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?
> >
> > Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, &
> > one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the
> > receiver doesn't have gmail.
> >
> > Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.
> >
> > Any input appreciated, thanks.
> > Sara
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> > Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> >
> > You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
> > list.
> > If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> > page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> > http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> >
> >
> --
> Rich Roth
> CEO TnR Global
>
> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>       http://www.artonmytv.com/
> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From dlesser at ptraining.com  Thu Sep 12 22:08:58 2019
From: dlesser at ptraining.com (dlesser at ptraining.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:08:58 -0600
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Google Suite vs Office 365 opinions sought
In-Reply-To: <CAB22ZO9KykPDsd4L=s=n-WkCXN8WNTLCzh0=2ybV2df_kT0ckA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190910134719.Horde.i0EjmPwcEPvtBmdDycf0tmD@webmail.literacyproject.org>
 <c5b7e483-bc1b-49d2-923c-7e1c3b325db6@tnrglobal.com>
 <CAB22ZO9KykPDsd4L=s=n-WkCXN8WNTLCzh0=2ybV2df_kT0ckA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c01ad19c29a8398ed394cf6b388fbf93@ptraining.com>

Rich-true. In my case, I needed real Office compatibility, which was
difficult enough with various versions of Office and NORMAL.DOT files
and nearly impossible with any of the Office clones. For professional
collaborative work, I have given up on anything except MS Office. I
would assume that the financial people at the non-profit would feel the
same about Excel vs Sheets.  

I have put some personal stuff in Google docs since the availability and
ease of editing outweighed any compatibility issues. For writing fiction
where all I needed was basic editing and formatting, it was fine. For
anything else, I found Google Docs annoying. Certainly it may be a
personal thing. 

BTW, for writing fiction and non-fiction, I have been using Scrivener.
It is a great program for drafting, moving sections around, keeping
research linked to specific parts of the document, and general
composing. It allows you to export to Word and I expect to do that once
the document is drafted.

On 2019-09-12 3:39 pm, Mark D. Hamill via Hidden-discuss wrote:

> I follow this guy. If seriously interested in LibreOffice, here's his video on how to make it as Word-like as possible. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0jeYe8iNWo 
> 
> He also likes NextCloud as an alternative to Google and Microsoft's suites. 
> 
> https://nextcloud.com 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 5:30 PM Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote: 
> 
>> I've worked with (and still) use all -- and I'd take a serious look at 
>> Libreoffice -- I get the comments, however as someone running commercial 
>> and non-profit the real question for me is the need for comparability vs 
>> cost -- add in how many functions do you need/use.
>> For example, there is no Access equivalent in google doc.
>> 
>> As for re-formatting, all that relates to the comparability -- who you 
>> work with and what tools they use you need to interact with,
>> 
>> A side note, you don't need gmail to use google doc - the only issue is 
>> the 1st time login, and asking someone to response to a invite is really 
>> not much of a bit deal.
>> 
>> Rich
>> 
>> On 9/10/2019 9:47 AM, Sara MacKay via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>> Hi Folks
>>> 
>>> I need to switch our non-profit to either Google for non- profits or 
>>> Office 365. Both provide the functions we need. Google suite has the 
>>> advantage that 1/2 the staff have gmail and are familiar w the 
>>> platform. Also google forms are really helpful for our 2 program 
>>> coordinators. Office 365 has the office Suite of programs that we have 
>>> always used and Word & Excel seem more robust and easier to do mail 
>>> merges & formatting.
>>> So I have 3 questions that I'm looking for opinions on from anyone 
>>> who has switched people over to one format or the other.
>>> 1. Has digital transfer of accounts to either been especially hard or 
>>> especially easy?
>>> 
>>> 2. Was using google drive or 1 drive difficult or confusing for low 
>>> tech-savvy users?  We have 22 staff. Maybe 5 are very comfortable with 
>>> tech.
>>> 
>>> 3. Any thoughts on the administration of either?
>>> 
>>> Only 5 staff reported a preference. 2 for Office 365, 2 for Google, & 
>>> one who says either except sharing a google doc is cumbersome if the 
>>> receiver doesn't have gmail.
>>> 
>>> Looking mostly for red flags or praise to help w the final choice.
>>> 
>>> Any input appreciated, thanks.
>>> Sara
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>> 
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion 
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>> 
>>> 
>> -- 
>> Rich Roth
>> CEO TnR Global
>> 
>> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
>> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
>> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
>> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>> http://www.artonmytv.com/
>> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From markdhamill at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 17:17:59 2019
From: markdhamill at gmail.com (Mark D. Hamill)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:17:59 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO presentation by Roger Montti,
 October 16 @ 7PM in Northampton
Message-ID: <CAB22ZO-XV+wUQRQBn8dzQmZP2fjBqPWrpvse_mLkWUGsm8JpQw@mail.gmail.com>

If interested, local SEO expert Roger Montti will be speaking on the
current state of SEO at our next Northampton Wordpress meetup. Roger gets
the first hour. The rest will be local Wordpress discussion you might want
to stay for if you are interested in the Wordpress platform.

We can accommodate about 20, so first come, first served. We'll be meeting
in the basement of the Coldwell Banker storefront on Main Street, downtown
Northampton, close to Thorne's Marketplace.

Please RSVP if coming and if you have a change of plans please un-RSVP.
Roger's talks are often at capacity, so someone may want your spot.

https://www.meetup.com/Northampton-WordPress-Meetup/events/fbtfjryznbvb/
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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 17:18:26 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:18:26 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] * * * Unraveling possible elaborate scam * * *
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wq976vQ6Ky4X01gXawiePT5f4rvMoOSOFvzjOiQo6=3sg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

I need some assistance...

I am concerned about a possible scam. If someone can help sort this out,
please be someone who will be rational and kind, not assumptive or
insulting. This person is a Nigerian student. His phone number is in the
234 country code. I have his gmail, WhatsApp, Facebook, and Messenger
accounts.

I have much respect, encouragement and empathy for a bright student from a
poor background, and have shown that for months now. I have given no money
or personal info, just lots of goodwill. But as the story gets more
complicated and requests more urgent, it's time to do some fact-checking. I
have been his key American ally for several months now.

I have met in person with his school officials here in MA, and they have
confirmed he has been accepted there and scholarship has been awarded, but
they admit, they do no background checks on prospective students, they
leave that to the US consulate through the F-1 student visa interview,
which won't happen for at least another month...and I have reason to fish
or cut bait NOW, like this week.

Thanks in advance,
Deb
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From stefan at healinghearts.com  Thu Sep 19 17:28:52 2019
From: stefan at healinghearts.com (Stefan Gonick)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 10:28:52 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Simple bookkeeping needed
In-Reply-To: <CAB22ZO-XV+wUQRQBn8dzQmZP2fjBqPWrpvse_mLkWUGsm8JpQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB22ZO-XV+wUQRQBn8dzQmZP2fjBqPWrpvse_mLkWUGsm8JpQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96d911a768f441c98822db29d6fc1d8e@healinghearts.com>

Hi Everyone,
  
 I'm in need of some simple bookkeeping that involves entering expense 
receipts into my database.
 Please contact me if you are interested.
  
  
 Thanks!
 Stefan

----------------------------------------
 From: "Mark D. Hamill via Hidden-discuss" 
<hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:22 PM
To: "email list Hidden-Tech" <Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Subject: [Hidden-tech] SEO presentation by Roger Montti,October 16 @ 7PM in 
Northampton   
 If interested, local SEO expert Roger Montti will be speaking on the 
current state of SEO at our next Northampton Wordpress meetup. Roger gets 
the first hour. The rest will be local Wordpress discussion you might want 
to stay for if you are interested in the Wordpress platform.  
 We can accommodate about 20, so first come, first served. We'll be meeting 
in the basement of the Coldwell Banker storefront on Main Street, downtown 
Northampton, close to Thorne's Marketplace.
  
 Please RSVP if coming and if you have a change of plans please un-RSVP. 
Roger's talks are often at capacity, so someone may want your spot.
  
 https://www.meetup.com/Northampton-WordPress-Meetup/events/fbtfjryznbvb/


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From fred at smallbatchbooks.com  Thu Sep 19 17:50:00 2019
From: fred at smallbatchbooks.com (Fred Levine)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:50:00 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Letter shop needed
Message-ID: <D02D0855-F7FF-4312-BC4C-B117B10DE4E4@smallbatchbooks.com>

Hi All,

 

Can anyone recommend a letter shop (or person) for a small mailing (about 70 pieces). 

We would  supply the letterhead and Excel list of names and addresses. 

 

Thanks,

Fred

 

 

 

Fred Levine

Small Batch Books

493 S. Pleasant St.

Amherst, MA 01002

 

 

 

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From rich at tnrglobal.com  Thu Sep 19 17:59:11 2019
From: rich at tnrglobal.com (Rich@tnr)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:59:11 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Anyone moved a Office install ?
Message-ID: <5292dd3c-74f9-100a-5919-5bf1e01856f2@tnrglobal.com>

The trick is this was on a working (Lenovo) laptop that has since died 
-- out of warrantee.
No luck getting any meaningful detailed profile from Lenovo
The hard drive is fully accessible -- plugged into new machine

Probably Office 2013 - machine from 2014
Need to move to a new Lenovo and old machine out of commission.

Looking for ideas (Office 365 not of interest, using Libreoffice in the 
meantime)

-- 
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
      http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com


From h.nguyen.ly at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 18:33:17 2019
From: h.nguyen.ly at gmail.com (Hai Nguyen Ly)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:33:17 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Anyone moved a Office install ?
In-Reply-To: <5292dd3c-74f9-100a-5919-5bf1e01856f2@tnrglobal.com>
References: <5292dd3c-74f9-100a-5919-5bf1e01856f2@tnrglobal.com>
Message-ID: <C5149583-293E-428B-9F44-39C08E8796C5@gmail.com>

You could always use software such as Macrium Reflect to clone the old drive to the new one.
https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree <https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree>
This would provide you with the previous Windows installation along with any previously installed software including Office.

Hai

> On Sep 19, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> 
> The trick is this was on a working (Lenovo) laptop that has since died -- out of warrantee.
> No luck getting any meaningful detailed profile from Lenovo
> The hard drive is fully accessible -- plugged into new machine
> 
> Probably Office 2013 - machine from 2014
> Need to move to a new Lenovo and old machine out of commission.
> 
> Looking for ideas (Office 365 not of interest, using Libreoffice in the meantime)
> 
> -- 
> Rich Roth
> CEO TnR Global
> 
> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>     http://www.artonmytv.com/
> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

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From elyssa.serrilli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 18:58:35 2019
From: elyssa.serrilli at gmail.com (Elyssa Serrilli)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:58:35 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] 3 advices on devices ;)
Message-ID: <CABgpAhHwtHojqN9qdiTuAqsQn6AYOcM7=N82A14Xiu8UXuSFwA@mail.gmail.com>

Buonasera, neighbors,

I've been spending a lot of time in the woods and on farms in the past
several years, and, well, it's been a looong time since I've made any big
tech purchases.  My life is shifting a bit these days, and I sure would
appreciate some advice on these three items:

1. Additional monitor I can hook up to my macbook, for when I'm doing
digital design + writing side by side at home.  The monitor would live on
my desk.  I would occasionally use it to watch Netflix, too.  Questions --
size? brand? new/used? cost?

2. AM/FM Radio / cd player/ internet radio/spotify/pandora player - What's
good, simple, small... sounds nice?  A friend was just visiting from
Belgium and joked that boomboxes are still a thing, lol... really?  I do
like to occasionally listen to the actual radio... but want one that hooks
up to wifi radio and plays cd's, too.  Friends have suggested Alexa, but
she seems a little intrusive.

3. Camera/Video Recorder - small, simple, good picture/video/sound
quality.  I am so privileged to attend and be a part of amazing events and
activities.  I'd love for the good work and amazing art of the people I
love to get more publicity.  I'm curious about livestreaming capabilities,
and wonder if there is a phone that does all this, or if it's better to get
a separate device.

I always love to hear people's stories and experiences that color their
advice.  If you love to talk about gear... lay it on me! :)


In Service and Magycke, in Divine Play,
Elyssa Marie Serrilli

Cultural Engineer






*"If you have come here to help me, you are wasting our time. But if you
have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work
together." ~ Lilla Watson*
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From izzygesell at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 19 20:12:13 2019
From: izzygesell at yahoo.com (Izzy G)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 20:12:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Hidden-tech] advice on medicare add-on programs
References: <2087211803.6733830.1568923933741.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2087211803.6733830.1568923933741@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Mavens,
After a few years on medicare, I'm looking to find the best add-ons. Any recommendations for a broker, insurance agent, etc who specializes in finding the best options for gap coverage, prescriptions etc.?
Thank you!

?Izzy Gesell, M.ED, CSP (Certified SpeakingProfessional)Organization Alchemist, Humorologist,Facilitator, Keynoter, Author413-2224142, PO Box 89, Huntington, MA 01050
New on LinkedIn Learning- Purchase individual courses. My courses:"Leading with Applied Improv":?http://bit.ly/2PkuKPk"Humor in the? Workplace"-?http://bit.ly/2ZzQhDt"Building Your Team"-?http://bit.ly/345JsNp? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
Free one month trial for ALL 13,000? LI course also available: https://linkedin-learning.pxf.io/n6k29

"This contains affiliate links and I will be compensated if you make a purchase after clicking on my links"
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From andrew at stakeholderscapital.com  Thu Sep 19 21:14:55 2019
From: andrew at stakeholderscapital.com (Andrew Bellak)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 17:14:55 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] advice on medicare add-on programs
In-Reply-To: <2087211803.6733830.1568923933741@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2087211803.6733830.1568923933741.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2087211803.6733830.1568923933741@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c590117e-5453-834d-069c-b470bfc4d7b2@stakeholderscapital.com>

Hi Izzy,

Try Greg Keochakian. He's a friend and insurance agent with NY Life. He 
used to run the Fisher Home (for hospice) and he's familiar with medicare.

gkeochakian at ft.newyorklife.com

Regards,

Andrew


On 9/19/2019 4:12 PM, Izzy G via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Hi Mavens,
>
> After a few years on medicare, I'm looking to find the best add-ons. 
> Any recommendations for a broker, insurance agent, etc who specializes 
> in finding the best options for gap coverage, prescriptions etc.?
>
> Thank you!
>
> ?Izzy Gesell, M.ED, CSP (Certified Speaking Professional)
> Organization Alchemist, Humorologist, Facilitator, Keynoter, Author
> 413-2224142, PO Box 89, Huntington, MA 01050
>
> *New on LinkedIn Learning-* Purchase individual courses. My courses:
> "Leading with Applied Improv": http://bit.ly/2PkuKPk
> "Humor in the? Workplace"- http://bit.ly/2ZzQhDt
> "Building Your Team"- http://bit.ly/345JsNp
> *Free one month trial* for ALL 13,000? LI course also available: 
> https://linkedin-learning.pxf.io/n6k29
>
> "This contains affiliate links and I will be compensated if you make a 
> purchase after clicking on my links"
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

-- 
Andrew Bellak
CEO
Registered Investment Advisor

Andrew at StakeholdersCapital.com
(o) 888-STK-HLDR (785-4537) x.2
(f) 888-735-HLDR (4537)

skype = andrewbellak
twitter = @andrewbellak, @stakeholderscap

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From krystyobolyte at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 21:29:18 2019
From: krystyobolyte at gmail.com (Kristi)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 17:29:18 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Letter shop needed
In-Reply-To: <D02D0855-F7FF-4312-BC4C-B117B10DE4E4@smallbatchbooks.com>
References: <D02D0855-F7FF-4312-BC4C-B117B10DE4E4@smallbatchbooks.com>
Message-ID: <CAPg8hJGv+v60h1oxkizgr1jzQY6ZdXiyHeSTMro2K=bwwaPoDg@mail.gmail.com>

Adam Direct Mail Services in Greenfield?

99 Elm St
Greenfield, MA 01301
413-774-9844

ken at adamsdirectmail.com

Tell us what you need and we will get back to you.
Kristi A. Bodin
Montague, MA
c: 413-695-9848
krystyobolyte at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kristibodin
https://twitter.com/KABESQ
http://KABESQ.com
Legal Solutions in Plain English






On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:13 PM Fred Levine via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Can anyone recommend a letter shop (or person) for a small mailing (about
> 70 pieces).
>
> We would  supply the letterhead and Excel list of names and addresses.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fred
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fred Levine
>
> Small Batch Books
>
> 493 S. Pleasant St.
>
> Amherst, MA 01002
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From lynnerudiedesign at gmail.com  Thu Sep 19 22:01:36 2019
From: lynnerudiedesign at gmail.com (Lynne Rudie)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:01:36 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Letter shop needed
In-Reply-To: <CAPg8hJGv+v60h1oxkizgr1jzQY6ZdXiyHeSTMro2K=bwwaPoDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D02D0855-F7FF-4312-BC4C-B117B10DE4E4@smallbatchbooks.com>
 <CAPg8hJGv+v60h1oxkizgr1jzQY6ZdXiyHeSTMro2K=bwwaPoDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D575F5AE-7E6D-4A7F-9F54-E545FE873015@gmail.com>

Adams Direct Mail is the BEST! I second the recommendation.
	Lynne

Lynne Rudie Graphic Design
See my contact info at: LynneRudie.com <http://lynnerudie.com/>




On Sep 19, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Kristi via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

Adam Direct Mail Services in Greenfield?



99 Elm St
Greenfield, MA 01301
413-774-9844

ken at adamsdirectmail.com <mailto:ken at adamsdirectmail.com>
Tell us what you need and we will get back to you.

Kristi A. Bodin
Montague, MA
c: 413-695-9848
krystyobolyte at gmail.com <mailto:krystyobolyte at gmail.com>
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kristibodin <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kristibodin>
https://twitter.com/KABESQ <https://twitter.com/KABESQ>
http://KABESQ.com <http://kabesq.com/>
Legal Solutions in Plain English






On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:13 PM Fred Levine via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
Hi All,

 

Can anyone recommend a letter shop (or person) for a small mailing (about 70 pieces). 

We would  supply the letterhead and Excel list of names and addresses. 

 

Thanks,

Fred

 

 

 

Fred Levine

Small Batch Books

493 S. Pleasant St.

Amherst, MA 01002

 

 

_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net <http://www.hidden-tech.net/>
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members <http://www.hidden-tech.net/members>
_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members


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From the at otherrealm.org  Fri Sep 20 00:59:55 2019
From: the at otherrealm.org (Aaron E-J)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 20:59:55 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Anyone moved a Office install ?
In-Reply-To: <C5149583-293E-428B-9F44-39C08E8796C5@gmail.com>
References: <5292dd3c-74f9-100a-5919-5bf1e01856f2@tnrglobal.com>
 <C5149583-293E-428B-9F44-39C08E8796C5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d79cfbd4-88b8-db34-c9f4-e149fc330522@otherrealm.org>

Try to find someone with an MS Office 2010 CD - you should be able to 
install those on multiple PCs and do it fairly legally.? In my opinion, 
Office 2010 is still the best version out there, Office 2013 is the 
worst, worse than office 2002 and certainly worse then LibreOffice.? 
Really the only reason to not use LibreOffice is if you need to share 
your files with someone who has only MS Office on a regular basis, as 
there are slight differences in the formatting. In terms of features, 
LibreOffice has as many or more features then MS Office.

Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-19 2:33 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> You could always use software such as Macrium Reflect to clone the old 
> drive to the new one.
> https://www.macrium.com/reflectfree
> This would provide you with the previous Windows installation along 
> with any previously installed software including Office.
>
> Hai
>
>> On Sep 19, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss 
>> <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
>> <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>>
>> The trick is this was on a working (Lenovo) laptop that has since 
>> died -- out of warrantee.
>> No luck getting any meaningful detailed profile from Lenovo
>> The hard drive is fully accessible -- plugged into new machine
>>
>> Probably Office 2013 - machine from 2014
>> Need to move to a new Lenovo and old machine out of commission.
>>
>> Looking for ideas (Office 365 not of interest, using Libreoffice in 
>> the meantime)
>>
>> -- 
>> Rich Roth
>> CEO TnR Global
>>
>> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
>> Building the really big sites: http://www.tnrglobal.com
>> Small/Soho business in the PV: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Places to meet for business: http://www.meetmewhere.com
>> And for relaxation: http://www.welovemuseums.com
>> http://www.artonmytv.com/
>> Helping move the world: http://www.earththrives.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
>> <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion 
>> list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

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From jessica at growingwellness.life  Fri Sep 20 10:37:49 2019
From: jessica at growingwellness.life (Jessica Gifford)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 06:37:49 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
Message-ID: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
of *Connection
Cards*, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know new
people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a
question that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a $150
prize for the winning design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life
for entry guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.

Thanks!
Jessica



-- 


Jessica Gifford, LICSW
www.growingwellness.life
413-548-4688
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From dtkboomer at gmail.com  Sat Sep 21 19:00:59 2019
From: dtkboomer at gmail.com (Dan Kirsch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 15:00:59 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Tennis (Lessons), Anyone?
Message-ID: <CAEKzUf2O8B4JSTi8CYVSk0umbjb5_jkF9skhHRriMHvwOUrb_g@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

Looking for recommendations for local tennis lessons for my 15 year old son
who?s just getting into the game and needs someone to undo all the
misguided coaching his father has already given him.

Thanks!
-- 

Dan Kirsch
dtkboomer at gmail.com
413.272.3205
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From alan at 8wheels.org  Mon Sep 23 19:15:09 2019
From: alan at 8wheels.org (Alan Frank)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:15:09 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Hacked Javascript library
Message-ID: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>

A frequently-referenced Javascript library page for doing autosuggest 
dropdowns has been hacked.  I am trying to either contact the author, 
find a clean copy, or even find a more appropriate place than this list 
to seek assistance.  The page is 
//netsh.pp.ua/upwork-demo/1/js/typeahead.js.  It was working fine until 
last Friday afternoon.  I went to the home page for the URL and left a 
message shortly after I found the issue, but have gotten no response.  I 
searched for the URL; there are several hits, but none where I was able 
to contact the author (I gave up after a while; there may yet be one).

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

--Alan

From eli at egwynn.com  Mon Sep 23 19:38:36 2019
From: eli at egwynn.com (Elijah Gwynn)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:38:36 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Hacked Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
References: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
Message-ID: <20CFDF11-C9DF-4855-9A2F-1BB0F44C0C0F@egwynn.com>

https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/

FYI It's a good idea to use [Subresource 
Integrity](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity) 
attributes on your externally-loaded resources to defend against these 
scenarios.

Eli

On 23 Sep 2019, at 15:15, Alan Frank via Hidden-discuss wrote:

> A frequently-referenced Javascript library page for doing autosuggest 
> dropdowns has been hacked.  I am trying to either contact the author, 
> find a clean copy, or even find a more appropriate place than this 
> list to seek assistance.  The page is 
> //netsh.pp.ua/upwork-demo/1/js/typeahead.js.  It was working fine 
> until last Friday afternoon.  I went to the home page for the URL and 
> left a message shortly after I found the issue, but have gotten no 
> response.  I searched for the URL; there are several hits, but none 
> where I was able to contact the author (I gave up after a while; there 
> may yet be one).
>
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --Alan
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion 
> list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From alanfleming9826 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 23 19:59:22 2019
From: alanfleming9826 at gmail.com (Alan Fleming)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:59:22 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Hacked Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
References: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
Message-ID: <CA+ZACZ6TMiR+YKzvXLRzOfYOJju78+U-==FB8u+TSOtbmFMyBg@mail.gmail.com>

I think this is the github page for that library:
https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/

Also, Ive found that Angular with the Bootstrap ui directive has an amazing
typeahead tool thats easy to implement, and boundless to customize and
apply completely custom filters:
https://angular-ui.github.io/bootstrap/#typeahead

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 3:29 PM Alan Frank via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> A frequently-referenced Javascript library page for doing autosuggest
> dropdowns has been hacked.  I am trying to either contact the author,
> find a clean copy, or even find a more appropriate place than this list
> to seek assistance.  The page is
> //netsh.pp.ua/upwork-demo/1/js/typeahead.js.  It was working fine until
> last Friday afternoon.  I went to the home page for the URL and left a
> message shortly after I found the issue, but have gotten no response.  I
> searched for the URL; there are several hits, but none where I was able
> to contact the author (I gave up after a while; there may yet be one).
>
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --Alan
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From thecenteredcoach at gmail.com  Tue Sep 24 12:00:00 2019
From: thecenteredcoach at gmail.com (Jim Young)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:00:00 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Invitation: Navigating the Challenges of Being a
 Divorced Dad
Message-ID: <CALTQgkeR97G-rcQPmxapXFbgBFj4eM+xQcj31XvxsRQrCT9mUg@mail.gmail.com>

*Details*: On October 7th I will be facilitating a small focus group
discussion on the unique challenges faced by divorced dads. If you are, or
know of, a divorced (or divorcing) dad who would like to contribute to this
conversation and connect with other men facing similar challenges, please
RSVP. I will be keeping this group small - somewhere in the 4-6 attendee
range - to encourage deep connection and dialogue. As with any forum around
sensitive subject matter, strict confidentiality will be required to ensure
a safe, open, and productive discussion.

*Location*: 48 Round Hill Road, Northampton, MA (detailed directions will
be provided to attendees)

*Date*: October 7, 2019

*Time*: 6:00 - 7:30 PM

*RSVP/questions*: thecenteredcoach at gmail.com

I hope to see you there!

Jim Young

-- 
Jim Young
Coach <https://thecenteredcoach.com/> | Gentle Man
<https://www.thecenteredcoach.com/blog/strong-enough-to-be-gentle> |
Improviser <https://www.happiervalley.com/notincharge.html> | Rockstar
<https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/being-rockstar-creates-joy-fulfillment-connection-jim-young/>
Connect on LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/thecenteredcoach>
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From alan at 8wheels.org  Tue Sep 24 21:19:59 2019
From: alan at 8wheels.org (Alan Frank)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:19:59 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Hacked Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <20CFDF11-C9DF-4855-9A2F-1BB0F44C0C0F@egwynn.com>
References: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
 <20CFDF11-C9DF-4855-9A2F-1BB0F44C0C0F@egwynn.com>
Message-ID: <8680f03ac2f5e11bc33654a4052ae828@8wheels.org>

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

?When you say that it has been hacked, is it doing something obviously 
nefarious, or has it just stopped working for you??  It is redirecting 
to Pornhub.com, which I think qualifies as nefarious.

https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/--I downloaded this and changed 
my header to reference it instead of the hacked file, but the 
functionality isn?t there.  Perhaps it is a cousin or incompatible fork. 
  I will try debugging and hope I'm not over my head.

The angular typeahead library looks great; maybe someday when I have 
time to learn about angular, I will try it out.  For now, I am sticking 
to tools with no major dependencies.

?When I deploy sites,  I serve JS libraries locally as part of asset 
compilation?? I thought about doing that, but it would isolate me from 
improvements.  Still, it can?t hurt to make a local copy as backup when 
I find a good copy.

I will implement subresource integrity for the various other libraries I 
pull in and for this one if it is restored.

> On 23 Sep 2019, at 15:15, Alan Frank via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> 
>> A frequently-referenced Javascript library page for doing
>> autosuggest dropdowns has been hacked. I am trying to either contact
>> the author, find a clean copy, or even find a more appropriate place
>> than this list to seek assistance. The page is
>> //netsh.pp.ua/upwork-demo/1/js/typeahead.js. It was working fine
>> until last Friday afternoon. I went to the home page for the URL and
>> left a message shortly after I found the issue, but have gotten no
>> response. I searched for the URL; there are several hits, but none
>> where I was able to contact the author (I gave up after a while;
>> there may yet be one).
>> 
>> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> --Alan

From eli at egwynn.com  Tue Sep 24 21:26:34 2019
From: eli at egwynn.com (Elijah Gwynn)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 17:26:34 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Hacked Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <8680f03ac2f5e11bc33654a4052ae828@8wheels.org>
References: <ec2ff4239a749f875c88dec50eec7bcc@8wheels.org>
 <20CFDF11-C9DF-4855-9A2F-1BB0F44C0C0F@egwynn.com>
 <8680f03ac2f5e11bc33654a4052ae828@8wheels.org>
Message-ID: <BCCD08EB-46EE-43AB-B614-1C16A4968791@egwynn.com>

> https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/ -- I downloaded this and 
> changed my header to reference it instead of the hacked file, but the 
> functionality isn?t there.  Perhaps it is a cousin or incompatible 
> fork.  I will try debugging and hope I'm not over my head.

It's also quite possible that the latest version isn't compatible with 
the version you had been using before. If you can't figure out what 
version you were using before, you could just try a few of the various 
releases they've put out and see if one of them works for you. You can 
get those at https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/releases.

> ?When I deploy sites,  I serve JS libraries locally as part of asset 
> compilation?? I thought about doing that, but it would isolate me 
> from improvements.  Still, it can?t hurt to make a local copy as 
> backup when I find a good copy.

Yes, *do* keep backups! I'd also recommend using version control (e.g. 
`git`) for as much of your site as possible to track and manage changes.

Eli

On 24 Sep 2019, at 17:19, Alan Frank wrote:

> Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
>
> ?When you say that it has been hacked, is it doing something 
> obviously nefarious, or has it just stopped working for you??  It is 
> redirecting to Pornhub.com, which I think qualifies as nefarious.
>
> https://github.com/twitter/typeahead.js/--I downloaded this and 
> changed my header to reference it instead of the hacked file, but the 
> functionality isn?t there.  Perhaps it is a cousin or incompatible 
> fork.  I will try debugging and hope I'm not over my head.
>
> The angular typeahead library looks great; maybe someday when I have 
> time to learn about angular, I will try it out.  For now, I am 
> sticking to tools with no major dependencies.
>
> ?When I deploy sites,  I serve JS libraries locally as part of asset 
> compilation?? I thought about doing that, but it would isolate me 
> from improvements.  Still, it can?t hurt to make a local copy as 
> backup when I find a good copy.
>
> I will implement subresource integrity for the various other libraries 
> I pull in and for this one if it is restored.
>
>> On 23 Sep 2019, at 15:15, Alan Frank via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>>> A frequently-referenced Javascript library page for doing
>>> autosuggest dropdowns has been hacked. I am trying to either contact
>>> the author, find a clean copy, or even find a more appropriate place
>>> than this list to seek assistance. The page is
>>> //netsh.pp.ua/upwork-demo/1/js/typeahead.js. It was working fine
>>> until last Friday afternoon. I went to the home page for the URL and
>>> left a message shortly after I found the issue, but have gotten no
>>> response. I searched for the URL; there are several hits, but none
>>> where I was able to contact the author (I gave up after a while;
>>> there may yet be one).
>>>
>>> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> --Alan
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From tommurray.us at gmail.com  Wed Sep 25 18:11:51 2019
From: tommurray.us at gmail.com (Tom Murray)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:11:51 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
Message-ID: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>

Hi all,

I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner in Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing in both directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking for a lawyer to help us finalize our agreements who is comfortable representing both sides.  We are also unsure whether it is better base the agreement in MA or MT.  Looking for advice and pointers.

thanks, Tom

===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
Tom Murray, EdD

Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here <http://knowingandunknowingreality.com/>)

Chief Visionary and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ? www.openwaysolutions.com <http://www.openwaysolutions.com/>
Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology & E-Dialogue  @ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us <http://www.tommurray.us/>
36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone: is413-then-695-and-2800.


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From rich at tnrglobal.com  Wed Sep 25 21:47:28 2019
From: rich at tnrglobal.com (Rich@tnr)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:47:28 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
In-Reply-To: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>
References: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>

Our experience is with

Paul Rapp - had good responses and been working with us.

 ??? Paul C. Rapp, Esq.
 ??? ??? PO Box 366,247 Beartown Mountain Rd,Monterey MA 01245
 ??? ??? 413.553.3189 paul at paulrapp.com <mailto:paul at paulrapp.com>

Leah Kunkel - Very knowledable - and very busy
 ??? ??? Attorney and Counselor at Law
 ??? ??? 17 New South Street, Northampton, MA? 01060
 ??? ??? 413-586-3077,? showbizlaw at me.com

Good luck - Rich

On 9/25/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Murray via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner in 
> Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing in both 
> directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking for a lawyer to 
> help us finalize our agreements who is comfortable representing both 
> sides. ?We are also unsure whether it is better base the agreement in 
> MA or MT. ?Looking for advice and pointers.
>
> thanks, Tom
>
> ===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---=== 
>
>
> Tom Murray, EdD
>
> Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here 
> <http://knowingandunknowingreality.com>)
>
> Chief Visionary?and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ? 
> www.openwaysolutions.com <http://www.openwaysolutions.com>
>
> Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology & 
> E-Dialogue ?@ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us <http://www.tommurray.us>
>
> 36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone: is413-then-695-and-2800.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

-- 
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
      http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com

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From greg at gregcaulton.com  Wed Sep 25 22:30:27 2019
From: greg at gregcaulton.com (Greg Caulton)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 18:30:27 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] AppleTV
Message-ID: <59F3BB75-56B1-4D68-9ECC-BD3685EF6C06@gregcaulton.com>

Would anyone have an AppleTV Gen 4 they?re not using (or maybe you?re planning to upgrade) and would like to sell? 

Greg :-)=
______________________
Greg Caulton
Creative Director, Patent Draftsman
www.gregcaulton.com
233 West Pelham Road
Shutesbury, MA 01072

Phone: 413-461-7096






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From rob at 2disc.com  Thu Sep 26 12:03:22 2019
From: rob at 2disc.com (Rob Laporte)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:03:22 +0000
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
In-Reply-To: <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>
References: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>,
 <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>
Message-ID: <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Lawrence Graves, CC'd, is brilliant, and specializes in such.


Best Regards,


Rob Laporte | SEO Specialist, CEO

DISC, Inc. - Making Websites Make Money

413-584-6500

rob at 2disc.com<mailto:rob at 2disc.com>

www.2disc.com<https://www.2disc.com/>

NOTE: Emails can be blocked by spam filters throughout the web. If you don?t get a reply within an expected span of time, please call.


________________________________
From: Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net> on behalf of Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:47 PM
To: Tom Murray <tommurray.us at gmail.com>; Hidden-Tech Tech <Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
Subject: Re: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice


Our experience is with

Paul Rapp - had good responses and been working with us.


    Paul C. Rapp, Esq.
        PO Box 366,247 Beartown Mountain Rd,Monterey MA   01245
        413.553.3189 paul at paulrapp.com<mailto:paul at paulrapp.com>


Leah Kunkel - Very knowledable - and very busy
        Attorney and Counselor at Law
        17 New South Street, Northampton, MA  01060
        413-586-3077,  showbizlaw at me.com<mailto:showbizlaw at me.com>

Good luck - Rich

On 9/25/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Murray via Hidden-discuss wrote:
Hi all,

I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner in Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing in both directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking for a lawyer to help us finalize our agreements who is comfortable representing both sides.  We are also unsure whether it is better base the agreement in MA or MT.  Looking for advice and pointers.

thanks, Tom

===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===

Tom Murray, EdD

Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here<http://knowingandunknowingreality.com>)

Chief Visionary and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ? www.openwaysolutions.com<http://www.openwaysolutions.com>

Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology & E-Dialogue  @ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us<http://www.tommurray.us>

36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone: is413-then-695-and-2800.




_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net<mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members


--
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
     http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
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From hwmurphy at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 13:07:40 2019
From: hwmurphy at gmail.com (Harold Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 09:07:40 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
In-Reply-To: <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>
 <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>
 <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJng8bze2J+E_QGyrmujiwCYPE-3PXY-y7LLjy5WB9QPOOqo=w@mail.gmail.com>

Look into basing your business in an Opportunity Zone. Huge benefits.

Call Alain Digon, 781-985-8601, he can give you a quick run down.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 8:47 AM Rob Laporte via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Lawrence Graves, CC'd, is brilliant, and specializes in such.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Rob Laporte | SEO Specialist, CEO
>
> DISC, Inc. - Making Websites Make Money
>
> 413-584-6500
>
> rob at 2disc.com
>
> www.2disc.com
>
> *NOTE:* Emails can be blocked by spam filters throughout the web. If you
> don?t get a reply within an expected span of time, please call.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net> on
> behalf of Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:47 PM
> *To:* Tom Murray <tommurray.us at gmail.com>; Hidden-Tech Tech <
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
>
>
> Our experience is with
>
> Paul Rapp - had good responses and been working with us.
>
>     Paul C. Rapp, Esq.
>         PO Box 366,247 Beartown Mountain Rd,Monterey MA   01245
>         413.553.3189 paul at paulrapp.com
>
> Leah Kunkel - Very knowledable - and very busy
>         Attorney and Counselor at Law
>         17 New South Street, Northampton, MA  01060
>         413-586-3077,  showbizlaw at me.com
>
> Good luck - Rich
> On 9/25/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Murray via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner in
> Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing in both
> directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking for a lawyer to help
> us finalize our agreements who is comfortable representing both sides.  We
> are also unsure whether it is better base the agreement in MA or MT.
> Looking for advice and pointers.
>
> thanks, Tom
>
> ===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
> ---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
>
> Tom Murray, EdD
>
> Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here
> <http://knowingandunknowingreality.com>)
>
> Chief Visionary and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ?
> www.openwaysolutions.com
>
> Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology &
> E-Dialogue  @ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us
>
> 36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone: is413-then-695-and-2800.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> --
> Rich Roth
> CEO TnR Global
>
> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>      http://www.artonmytv.com/
> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>


-- 
*Harold W. Murphy*
*Murphy Realty*
*Box 60511*
*Longmeadow, MA 01116*
*413-575-2507  hwmurphy at gmail.com <hwmurphy at gmail.com>*
*MA REB.126252 / CT REB.0487774*
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From rich at tnrglobal.com  Thu Sep 26 14:37:15 2019
From: rich at tnrglobal.com (Rich@tnr)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 10:37:15 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
In-Reply-To: <CAJng8bze2J+E_QGyrmujiwCYPE-3PXY-y7LLjy5WB9QPOOqo=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>
 <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>
 <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAJng8bze2J+E_QGyrmujiwCYPE-3PXY-y7LLjy5WB9QPOOqo=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <abdabf78-41af-ccab-de57-a672aace74e3@tnrglobal.com>

Semi-related and interesting - see this map: 
https://www.mass.gov/service-details/opportunity-zone-map
A bunch in Franklin county.

On 9/26/2019 9:07 AM, Harold Murphy via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Look into basing your business in an Opportunity Zone. Huge benefits.
>
> Call Alain Digon, 781-985-8601, he can give you a quick run down.
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 8:47 AM Rob Laporte via Hidden-discuss 
> <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
> <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>
>     Lawrence Graves, CC'd, is brilliant, and specializes in such.
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>
>     Rob Laporte| SEO Specialist, CEO
>
>     DISC, Inc. - Making Websites Make Money
>
>     413-584-6500
>
>     rob at 2disc.com <mailto:rob at 2disc.com>
>
>     www.2disc.com <https://www.2disc.com/>
>
>
>     *NOTE:*?Emails can be blocked by spam filters throughout the web.
>     If you don?t get a reply within an expected span of time, please call.
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Hidden-discuss
>     <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net>> on behalf
>     of Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss
>     <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>>
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:47 PM
>     *To:* Tom Murray <tommurray.us at gmail.com
>     <mailto:tommurray.us at gmail.com>>; Hidden-Tech Tech
>     <Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
>
>     Our experience is with
>
>     Paul Rapp - had good responses and been working with us.
>
>     ??? Paul C. Rapp, Esq.
>     ??? ??? PO Box 366,247 Beartown Mountain Rd,Monterey MA ? 01245
>     ??? ??? 413.553.3189 paul at paulrapp.com <mailto:paul at paulrapp.com>
>
>     Leah Kunkel - Very knowledable - and very busy
>     ??? ??? Attorney and Counselor at Law
>     ??? ??? 17 New South Street, Northampton, MA? 01060
>     ??? ??? 413-586-3077, showbizlaw at me.com <mailto:showbizlaw at me.com>
>
>     Good luck - Rich
>
>     On 9/25/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Murray via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>     Hi all,
>>
>>     I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner
>>     in Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing
>>     in both directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking
>>     for a lawyer to help us finalize our agreements who is
>>     comfortable representing both sides.? We are also unsure whether
>>     it is better base the agreement in MA or MT.? Looking for advice
>>     and pointers.
>>
>>     thanks, Tom
>>
>>     ===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
>>
>>
>>     Tom Murray, EdD
>>
>>     Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here
>>     <http://knowingandunknowingreality.com>)
>>
>>     Chief Visionary?and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ?
>>     www.openwaysolutions.com <http://www.openwaysolutions.com>
>>
>>     Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology
>>     & E-Dialogue ?@ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us
>>     <http://www.tommurray.us>
>>
>>     36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone:
>>     is413-then-695-and-2800.
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net  <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>     -- 
>     Rich Roth
>     CEO TnR Global
>
>     Bio and personal blog:http://rizbang.com
>     Building the really big sites:http://www.tnrglobal.com
>     Small/Soho business in the PV:http://www.hidden-tech.net
>     Places to meet for business:http://www.meetmewhere.com
>     And for relaxation:http://www.welovemuseums.com
>           http://www.artonmytv.com/
>     Helping move the world:http://www.earththrives.com
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>
>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>     Discussion list.
>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
>
> -- 
> *Harold W. Murphy*
> *Murphy Realty*
> *Box 60511*
> *Longmeadow, MA 01116*
> *413-575-2507 hwmurphy at gmail.com <mailto:hwmurphy at gmail.com>*
> *MA REB.126252 / CT REB.0487774*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

-- 
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
      http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com

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From rich at on-the-net.com  Thu Sep 26 16:36:08 2019
From: rich at on-the-net.com (Rich@OTN)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:36:08 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>

You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage 
for a graphic artist
and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with 
your company name.

I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
OR just hire an artist.

Think about it.

On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck 
> of /Connection Cards/, which are used in a program that helps 
> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and 
> develop friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer 
> as part of the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning 
> design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life 
> <mailto:jessica at growingwellness.life> for entry guidelines. Please 
> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>
> Thanks!
> Jessica
>
>
>
> -- 
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From tessgadwa at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 16:36:11 2019
From: tessgadwa at gmail.com (Tess Gadwa)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 09:36:11 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
In-Reply-To: <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <352300E0-D2FB-41B0-9F0E-0D517E3A69D9@gmail.com>
 <4fa8f1bd-7e7f-0159-7543-22440de60039@tnrglobal.com>
 <BN8PR14MB2481E55721AEC1A3B8CCD4F4E5860@BN8PR14MB2481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJVQcsWtiC2qck20ZMv-29+phQ1oobagmHF_WeSYDqHRNzNdw@mail.gmail.com>

Larry Graves seems great from the interactions I have had with him. I can't
recommend his partner, Daniel Coolidge, though.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 5:47 AM Rob Laporte via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Lawrence Graves, CC'd, is brilliant, and specializes in such.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Rob Laporte | SEO Specialist, CEO
>
> DISC, Inc. - Making Websites Make Money
>
> 413-584-6500
>
> rob at 2disc.com
>
> www.2disc.com
>
> *NOTE:* Emails can be blocked by spam filters throughout the web. If you
> don?t get a reply within an expected span of time, please call.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss-bounces at lists.hidden-tech.net> on
> behalf of Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:47 PM
> *To:* Tom Murray <tommurray.us at gmail.com>; Hidden-Tech Tech <
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Hidden-tech] Looking for references for legal advice
>
>
> Our experience is with
>
> Paul Rapp - had good responses and been working with us.
>
>     Paul C. Rapp, Esq.
>         PO Box 366,247 Beartown Mountain Rd,Monterey MA   01245
>         413.553.3189 paul at paulrapp.com
>
> Leah Kunkel - Very knowledable - and very busy
>         Attorney and Counselor at Law
>         17 New South Street, Northampton, MA  01060
>         413-586-3077,  showbizlaw at me.com
>
> Good luck - Rich
> On 9/25/2019 2:11 PM, Tom Murray via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am working on an IP licensing agreement with a business partner in
> Montana. The (draft) agreement specifies IP and income sharing in both
> directions. We are on high trust terms and are looking for a lawyer to help
> us finalize our agreements who is comfortable representing both sides.  We
> are also unsure whether it is better base the agreement in MA or MT.
> Looking for advice and pointers.
>
> thanks, Tom
>
> ===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
> ---===---===---===---===---===---===---===
>
> Tom Murray, EdD
>
> Knowing and Unknowing Reality (read it here
> <http://knowingandunknowingreality.com>)
>
> Chief Visionary and Instigator @ Open Way Solutions ?
> www.openwaysolutions.com
>
> Senior Research Fellow in Cognitive Tools, Educational Technology &
> E-Dialogue  @ UMass Amherst ? www.tommurray.us
>
> 36 Fruit Street, Northampton MA 01060; phone: is413-then-695-and-2800.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> --
> Rich Roth
> CEO TnR Global
>
> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>      http://www.artonmytv.com/
> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 17:25:01 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 13:25:01 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jessica,

I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".

What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing to
pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the graphic
design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask them to
serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for the one
you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
(PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
adhere to these industry guidelines.

You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
process through to completion.

Best on this project,
Deb

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of *Connection
> Cards*, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know
> new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card
> has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will
> be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email
> jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to
> anyone who may be interested.
>
> Thanks!
> Jessica
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From ed at edbride-pr.com  Thu Sep 26 17:51:33 2019
From: ed at edbride-pr.com (ed at edbride-pr.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 13:51:33 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] FLIP Cam trouble
Message-ID: <03c401d57493$091e8fb0$1b5baf10$@edbride-pr.com>

 

HTers,

 

Remember that FLIP CAM video recorder that was all the rage a few years
back? The company went bankrupt, eventually picked-up by CISCO, which is no
longer supporting it. Its video and audio are wonderful, and the files work
with nearly any video editing software; you just can't share it via the
FLIPshare service. 

 

The new files on my camera cannot be found by my computer, nor on the
computers at the local repair shop. I fear that the camera may have been
dropped, and some connector worked itself loose. I can view them on the
camera, but can't bring them over to my computer to work on them.

 

Does anybody have experience with the FLIP Cam? There doesn't seem to be an
accessible card that could be removed and inserted directly into a device,
and I'm not about to pay multiple hundreds of dollars to a data recovery
service. Very frustrating. The camera does connect via USB, and the computer
charges the battery. The device is found by the operating system (tried on
both Mac and Windows), but no files.although it's clear that there are 100+
short videos on board.

 

Thanks, for any insights,

Ed Bride

 

 

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From info at yesexactly.com  Thu Sep 26 17:46:44 2019
From: info at yesexactly.com (Yes Exactly)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 10:46:44 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Funding creative projects
In-Reply-To: <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
Message-ID: <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>

Reading the recent artist contest thread, I empathize with the budget
constraints that small businesses and nonprofits are under, and also with
the drop in pay rates that many artists and illustrators have experienced,
particularly in the Valley.

Something my company has been exploring is smart crowdfunding on the
Ethereum blockchain. For example it could be used to:

- Open source a software repository, while funding future development and
support for the project.
- Release a single from a music album so you can record the the rest of the
album and tour.
- Serially publish an online game, video series, or novel.

It is not a new form of currency or an ICO. It's designed for projects
where you want as wide as audience for your work as possible, but also a
way to monetize your project and keep some control over how it's used. It
would also be great for any artwork or creative project sponsoring a
charity.

Anyway, we're at the Proof of Concept phase. Curious for people's initial
thoughts. Happy to share more deets.

Tess Gadwa

Https://lotus.fm




On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:36 AM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
> for a graphic artist
> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your
> company name.
>
> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
> OR just hire an artist.
>
> Think about it.
> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of *Connection
> Cards*, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know
> new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card
> has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will
> be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email
> jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to
> anyone who may be interested.
>
> Thanks!
> Jessica
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From todd at toddlemieux.com  Thu Sep 26 17:56:41 2019
From: todd at toddlemieux.com (Todd LeMieux)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 10:56:41 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>

Great replies, and I completely agree.

I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of creative
services (designers, web developers, photographers, musicians, etc)
?contests? to get essentially free work (and usually underpaid, for the
?winner?, if there is any payment involved). It?s just plain wrong.

Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar contest for
bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You get the point.

Sincerely,
Todd

Untitled Document

-------------------

Todd M. LeMieux
413.237.6869
[Graphic Design + Creative Direction]

Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>

Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>

On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss (
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:

Hi Jessica,

I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".

What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing to
pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the graphic
design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask them to
serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for the one
you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
(PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
adhere to these industry guidelines.

You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
process through to completion.

Best on this project,
Deb

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of *Connection
> Cards*, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know
> new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card
> has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will
> be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email
> jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to
> anyone who may be interested.
>
> Thanks!
> Jessica
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From sustainabilitydesigner at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 18:00:20 2019
From: sustainabilitydesigner at gmail.com (kris badertscher)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:00:20 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
Message-ID: <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>

As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest* to
be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.

This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or
underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
themselves.

Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.

This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor as
an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*. What
results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what
a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.

Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.

Cheers, Kris

sustainabilitydesigner.com

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
> for a graphic artist
> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your
> company name.
>
> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
> OR just hire an artist.
>
> Think about it.
> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of *Connection
> Cards*, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know
> new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card
> has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will
> be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email
> jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to
> anyone who may be interested.
>
> Thanks!
> Jessica
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From jessica at growingwellness.life  Thu Sep 26 18:10:34 2019
From: jessica at growingwellness.life (Jessica Gifford)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:10:34 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Funding creative projects
In-Reply-To: <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJELc3G70nCG+Tt01X8c01nGbC_r9WXJcSF8pb2+HfZrPa1QiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
Thanks for your feedback on the contest I posted. I don't mean to
undervalue anyone's work, and apologize for that. I'm working to get a
start-up off the ground, so finding funding for the many needs of a new
business is a challenge. Tess, I appreciate your post about crowdfunding
and other creative options to bring projects into the world.
Best,
Jessica

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:55 PM Yes Exactly <info at yesexactly.com> wrote:

> Reading the recent artist contest thread, I empathize with the budget
> constraints that small businesses and nonprofits are under, and also with
> the drop in pay rates that many artists and illustrators have experienced,
> particularly in the Valley.
>
> Something my company has been exploring is smart crowdfunding on the
> Ethereum blockchain. For example it could be used to:
>
> - Open source a software repository, while funding future development and
> support for the project.
> - Release a single from a music album so you can record the the rest of
> the album and tour.
> - Serially publish an online game, video series, or novel.
>
> It is not a new form of currency or an ICO. It's designed for projects
> where you want as wide as audience for your work as possible, but also a
> way to monetize your project and keep some control over how it's used. It
> would also be great for any artwork or creative project sponsoring a
> charity.
>
> Anyway, we're at the Proof of Concept phase. Curious for people's initial
> thoughts. Happy to share more deets.
>
> Tess Gadwa
>
> Https://lotus.fm
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:36 AM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>> for a graphic artist
>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>> your company name.
>>
>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>> OR just hire an artist.
>>
>> Think about it.
>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>

-- 


Jessica Gifford, LICSW
www.growingwellness.life
413-548-4688
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From rich at tnrglobal.com  Thu Sep 26 18:20:02 2019
From: rich at tnrglobal.com (Rich@tnr)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:20:02 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Funding creative projects
In-Reply-To: <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6905e2e8-37d8-3b4c-247b-c76352c72de9@tnrglobal.com>

As I read it - from your sig (unless there is something else) - 
Https://lotus.fm
What you are doing is making the cash flow process a way bit easier - 
common site and payment process and QR codes

Or is there more/different you've not shown

Interesting for a number of projects I'm on -- please explain - here or 
offline.

Rich

On 9/26/2019 1:46 PM, Yes Exactly wrote:
> Reading the recent artist contest thread, I empathize with the budget 
> constraints that small businesses and nonprofits are under, and also 
> with the drop in pay rates that many artists and illustrators have 
> experienced, particularly in the Valley.
>
> Something my company has been exploring is smart crowdfunding on the 
> Ethereum blockchain. For example it could be used to:
>
> - Open source a software repository, while funding future development 
> and support for the project.
> - Release a single from a music album so you can record the the rest 
> of the album and tour.
> - Serially publish an online game, video series, or novel.
>
> It is not a new form of currency or an ICO. It's designed for projects 
> where you want as wide as audience for your work as possible, but also 
> a way to monetize your project and keep some control over how it's 
> used. It would also be great for any artwork or creative project 
> sponsoring a charity.
>
> Anyway, we're at the Proof of Concept phase. Curious for people's 
> initial thoughts. Happy to share more deets.
>
> Tess Gadwa
>
> Https://lotus.fm
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:36 AM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss 
> <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
> <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>
>     You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a
>     reasonable wage for a graphic artist
>     and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line
>     with your company name.
>
>     I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>     OR just hire an artist.
>
>     Think about it.
>
>     On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>>     Hi All,
>>
>>     I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>     deck of /Connection Cards/, which are used in a program that
>>     helps participants get to know new people, build social
>>     connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a question
>>     that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a
>>     $150 prize for the winning design. You may email
>>     jessica at growingwellness.life
>>     <mailto:jessica at growingwellness.life> for entry guidelines.
>>     Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>     Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>
>>
>>     Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>     www.growingwellness.life <http://www.growingwellness.life>
>>     413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net  <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>     _______________________________________________
>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>
>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>     Discussion list.
>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
-- 
Rich Roth
CEO TnR Global

Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
      http://www.artonmytv.com/
Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com

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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 18:29:11 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:29:11 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Funding creative projects
In-Reply-To: <CAJELc3G70nCG+Tt01X8c01nGbC_r9WXJcSF8pb2+HfZrPa1QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJELc3G70nCG+Tt01X8c01nGbC_r9WXJcSF8pb2+HfZrPa1QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wrJTs0CeDuTu0oryvdYW_xWsX0VtdCgLH5kgsLvxGeNGA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for that response, Jessica. And a good chunk of what I intended
to say was that even start up businesses would never consider asking a
carpenter, painter, furniture seller, etc. to do their work or provide
their service on spec, it just tends to be something expected of creatives,
that's all. (Mostly, because some creatives HAVE done it, and paved the
way) The start up would somehow figure out how to pay up front for these
other items and services. I am sure you understand my perspective...

Best,
Deb

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:14 PM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
> Thanks for your feedback on the contest I posted. I don't mean to
> undervalue anyone's work, and apologize for that. I'm working to get a
> start-up off the ground, so finding funding for the many needs of a new
> business is a challenge. Tess, I appreciate your post about crowdfunding
> and other creative options to bring projects into the world.
> Best,
> Jessica
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:55 PM Yes Exactly <info at yesexactly.com> wrote:
>
>> Reading the recent artist contest thread, I empathize with the budget
>> constraints that small businesses and nonprofits are under, and also with
>> the drop in pay rates that many artists and illustrators have experienced,
>> particularly in the Valley.
>>
>> Something my company has been exploring is smart crowdfunding on the
>> Ethereum blockchain. For example it could be used to:
>>
>> - Open source a software repository, while funding future development and
>> support for the project.
>> - Release a single from a music album so you can record the the rest of
>> the album and tour.
>> - Serially publish an online game, video series, or novel.
>>
>> It is not a new form of currency or an ICO. It's designed for projects
>> where you want as wide as audience for your work as possible, but also a
>> way to monetize your project and keep some control over how it's used. It
>> would also be great for any artwork or creative project sponsoring a
>> charity.
>>
>> Anyway, we're at the Proof of Concept phase. Curious for people's initial
>> thoughts. Happy to share more deets.
>>
>> Tess Gadwa
>>
>> Https://lotus.fm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:36 AM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>>> for a graphic artist
>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>> your company name.
>>>
>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>
>>> Think about it.
>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
> www.growingwellness.life
> 413-548-4688
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 18:30:47 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:30:47 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>

Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still involved with
the Graphic Artists Guild?

Deb


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux <todd at toddlemieux.com> wrote:

> Great replies, and I completely agree.
>
> I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of creative
> services (designers, web developers, photographers, musicians, etc)
> ?contests? to get essentially free work (and usually underpaid, for the
> ?winner?, if there is any payment involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>
> Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar contest
> for bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You get the point.
>
> Sincerely,
> Todd
>
> -------------------
>
> Todd M. LeMieux
> 413.237.6869
> [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>
> Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
> <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>
> Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>
> On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss (
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:
>
> Hi Jessica,
>
> I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
> offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
> services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".
>
> What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing
> to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the
> graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask
> them to serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for
> the one you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
> with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
> others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
> (PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
> adhere to these industry guidelines.
>
> You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
> contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
> it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
> choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
> them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
> hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
> many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
> quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
> process through to completion.
>
> Best on this project,
> Deb
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
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From denisefbatalha at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 18:24:51 2019
From: denisefbatalha at gmail.com (Denise Batalha)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:24:51 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJn0ZGx_HCjob+h-_r4TReVXOZjjcTJLRcbXL+Na7wQ=LZ_fiw@mail.gmail.com>

I concur with Deb in regards to this. Another pet peeve is "exposure".
Exposure doesn't pay the bills. However, considering you're a non-profit,
allow me to offer another suggestion: pro bono. See if there are any
artists willing to "volunteer" their skills and time for a non-profit. I
have personally done so for Hampshire College. The way I looked it was an
additional piece to add to my portfolio. No, I wasn't just "starting out".
I actually had been a functioning designer prior to getting my Bachelor's,
as I had already some years of experience under an Associate's, but I was
doing anything and everything to get a foot in the door. Literally took me
11 years, no thanks to my alma mater (no help with job placement and
they're a local school, as well (act like they're equally as prestigious as
an Ivy League)). That's beside the point, but you never know who might be
willing. Alternatively, you could look into GD majors/minors (students) who
may be looking to add something they've professionally designed to add to
their portfolio.

Thanks, Deb, for mentioning the Graphic Artists Guild. I had no idea such a
group existed and will definitely look into them.

Denise



On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:43 PM Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Hi Jessica,
>
> I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
> offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
> services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".
>
> What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing
> to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the
> graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask
> them to serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for
> the one you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
> with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
> others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
> (PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
> adhere to these industry guidelines.
>
> You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
> contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
> it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
> choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
> them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
> hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
> many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
> quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
> process through to completion.
>
> Best on this project,
> Deb
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From denisefbatalha at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 18:29:24 2019
From: denisefbatalha at gmail.com (Denise Batalha)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:29:24 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>

Kris,

I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
individual lacking the funds, can be.

Denise

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest* to
> be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>
> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or
> underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
> themselves.
>
> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>
> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor
> as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*. What
> results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what
> a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.
>
> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>
> Cheers, Kris
>
> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>> for a graphic artist
>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>> your company name.
>>
>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>> OR just hire an artist.
>>
>> Think about it.
>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From tess.gadwa at yesexactly.com  Thu Sep 26 18:48:53 2019
From: tess.gadwa at yesexactly.com (Tess Gadwa)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:48:53 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Funding creative projects
In-Reply-To: <6905e2e8-37d8-3b4c-247b-c76352c72de9@tnrglobal.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAPA4ta4q5Oo7nyR6pdkfzzExEps5+ABHQSvonSEEMN4eDUNPRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6905e2e8-37d8-3b4c-247b-c76352c72de9@tnrglobal.com>
Message-ID: <CAGZC9ffbozo8WiK2xjgaE0oJ0-oJG2KjxNwn1N1pT3Jj839r8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, there is more! Lotus.fm is the business model we are planning to fund
through smart crowdfunding. Traveling out of the country today. Will share
the rest when I get back.

Thanks much,

Tess Gadwa

Https://lotus.fm


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 11:22 AM Rich at tnr via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> As I read it - from your sig (unless there is something else) -
> Https://lotus.fm
> What you are doing is making the cash flow process a way bit easier -
> common site and payment process and QR codes
>
> Or is there more/different you've not shown
>
> Interesting for a number of projects I'm on -- please explain - here or
> offline.
>
> Rich
> On 9/26/2019 1:46 PM, Yes Exactly wrote:
>
> Reading the recent artist contest thread, I empathize with the budget
> constraints that small businesses and nonprofits are under, and also with
> the drop in pay rates that many artists and illustrators have experienced,
> particularly in the Valley.
>
> Something my company has been exploring is smart crowdfunding on the
> Ethereum blockchain. For example it could be used to:
>
> - Open source a software repository, while funding future development and
> support for the project.
> - Release a single from a music album so you can record the the rest of
> the album and tour.
> - Serially publish an online game, video series, or novel.
>
> It is not a new form of currency or an ICO. It's designed for projects
> where you want as wide as audience for your work as possible, but also a
> way to monetize your project and keep some control over how it's used. It
> would also be great for any artwork or creative project sponsoring a
> charity.
>
> Anyway, we're at the Proof of Concept phase. Curious for people's initial
> thoughts. Happy to share more deets.
>
> Tess Gadwa
>
> Https://lotus.fm
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:36 AM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>> for a graphic artist
>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>> your company name.
>>
>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>> OR just hire an artist.
>>
>> Think about it.
>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> --
> Rich Roth
> CEO TnR Global
>
> Bio and personal blog: http://rizbang.com
> Building the really big sites:      http://www.tnrglobal.com
> Small/Soho business in the PV:        http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Places to meet for business:        http://www.meetmewhere.com
> And for relaxation:        http://www.welovemuseums.com
>      http://www.artonmytv.com/
> Helping move the world:             http://www.earththrives.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From shel at principledprofit.com  Thu Sep 26 18:56:13 2019
From: shel at principledprofit.com (Shel Horowitz)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:56:13 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] FLIP Cam trouble
In-Reply-To: <03c401d57493$091e8fb0$1b5baf10$@edbride-pr.com>
References: <03c401d57493$091e8fb0$1b5baf10$@edbride-pr.com>
Message-ID: <CADG-Mh1PLQj6iAmm7M5SJi4NLW2wjLKLzosxyB34hHqPkGjSMw@mail.gmail.com>

Not really my expertise, but I do have a couple of ideas:

   - Since you can see the camera as a drive when it's connected via USB,
   try copying the entire contents of the drive to the computer, even if you
   can't see them. They might show on the destination device and if they
   don't, they might e findable in a search for file type (especially within
   an app rather than within the operating system
   - If there's a Save As, Share, or Duplicate option on the Flip, you may
   be able to open the individual file from the camera and copy it to the
   destination device

If you don't get useful responses on list, I believe both Tom Adams of
Reellife and Steve Unkles whose company name in Florence escapes me at the
moment are members of the list--and they would have the skills. You could
track them through public channels.

Shel Horowitz - "The Transformpreneur"(sm)
________________________________________________
Watch (and please share) my TEDx Talk,
"Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
*http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>**
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>*
(move your mouse to "event videos")

Contact me to bake in profitability while addressing hunger,
poverty, war, and catastrophic climate change

Twitter: @shelhorowitz

* First business ever to be Green America Gold Certified
* Inducted into the National Environmental Hall of Fame

http://goingbeyondsustainability.com
mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com * 413-586-2388
Award-winning, best-selling author of 10 books. Latest:
Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World (co-authored with Jay Conrad Levinson)

_________________________________________________


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:51 PM ed--- via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

>
>
> HTers,
>
>
>
> Remember that FLIP CAM video recorder that was all the rage a few years
> back? The company went bankrupt, eventually picked-up by CISCO, which is no
> longer supporting it. Its video and audio are wonderful, and the files work
> with nearly any video editing software; you just can't share it via the
> FLIPshare service.
>
>
>
> The new files on my camera cannot be found by my computer, nor on the
> computers at the local repair shop. I fear that the camera may have been
> dropped, and some connector worked itself loose. I can view them on the
> camera, but can't bring them over to my computer to work on them.
>
>
>
> Does anybody have experience with the FLIP Cam? There doesn't seem to be
> an accessible card that could be removed and inserted directly into a
> device, and I?m not about to pay multiple hundreds of dollars to a data
> recovery service. Very frustrating. The camera does connect via USB, and
> the computer charges the battery. The device is found by the operating
> system (tried on both Mac and Windows), but no files?although it's clear
> that there are 100+ short videos on board.
>
>
>
> Thanks, for any insights,
>
> Ed Bride
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From debchandler411 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 19:17:37 2019
From: debchandler411 at gmail.com (Deborah Chandler)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:17:37 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGs6=wra-h6bnnXKemxx+Gy5j3A=AMJXDwFzaPw6=OjyfvUpAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Denise,

There was a time, pre-computer, when us designers had to do everything
manually and it held more value, because not every Tom, Dick and Happy had
the tools to create it, let alone the talent. We used T-squares (or
parallel rules), triangles, mechanical board, X-Acto knives, galleys of
typesetting sent out to a service bureau, we did our own color separations,
used acetate or Rubylith overlays, registration marks, or glued it all down
with rubber cement or wax. Created our own black and white images in the
"stat room" (breathed in some nasty chemicals, too)

Now, with personal computers a dime a dozen, *anyone* can create what is
called "graphic design". But that does not mean they have our in-depth
education and years of experience. I have a Bachelors in Graphic Design
from Mass College of Art from 1983, the year right before the advent of Mac
computers. I'm getting all nostalgic...

Those bicycle messengers in Boston were so kickass, dodging and weaving
through traffic with no helmets, to get a big rush job back to us on the
waterfront from the service bureau in Southie before they closed. We didn't
have fax machines back then. Crazy how much has changed. We had to really
think and plan our design executions. Mistakes cost us money. Now, it's
just a Command Z.

Dinosaur Designer Deb

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:33 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Kris,
>
> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>
> Denise
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>
>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or
>> underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>> themselves.
>>
>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>
>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor
>> as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*. What
>> results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what
>> a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.
>>
>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>
>> Cheers, Kris
>>
>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>>> for a graphic artist
>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>> your company name.
>>>
>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>
>>> Think about it.
>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From aaron at taylorwaldman.com  Thu Sep 26 19:55:46 2019
From: aaron at taylorwaldman.com (Aaron Taylor-Waldman)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:55:46 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>

The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear
https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work

When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative services:

   - Paid work
   - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than 20%
   of my annual work hours.
   - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)

Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take
the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer
is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).






On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Kris,
>
> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>
> Denise
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>
>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or
>> underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>> themselves.
>>
>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>
>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor
>> as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*. What
>> results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what
>> a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.
>>
>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>
>> Cheers, Kris
>>
>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage
>>> for a graphic artist
>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>> your company name.
>>>
>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>
>>> Think about it.
>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From denisefbatalha at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 19:43:54 2019
From: denisefbatalha at gmail.com (Denise Batalha)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:43:54 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAGs6=wra-h6bnnXKemxx+Gy5j3A=AMJXDwFzaPw6=OjyfvUpAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wra-h6bnnXKemxx+Gy5j3A=AMJXDwFzaPw6=OjyfvUpAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJn0ZGzSjaSxwnmg=uQLA7-dVJ8moovAA0M7HvaSKHhnjMMBkg@mail.gmail.com>

Deb,

Thanks so much for sharing that with me. I'm well aware of how things USED
to be. I'm not sure HOW I knew, but I knew. There could've been a designer
that worked with my father, for example, so that could be one way of how I
knew. I may have also done research. It still amazes me, none the less, the
amount of work done by hand. I craft, though it's not as painstaking as
graphic design "back in the day", but I can appreciate the amount of work
done by hand at that time. I actually participated in a summer art program
at Mass College of Art back in '94, and was initially my school of choice,
until I realized they didn't teach animation, so I sought education
elsewhere. With the help of my wonderful, extremely supportive father, he
suggested I take my prerequisites at a 2 year, to save money. Life took
turns and I fell off the path at some point... neither here, nor there, but
it did put me "behind" so to speak, from everyone else my age who may have
already started their careers. But like my mother said, there's a reason
for everything. So, she may be right. I don't necessarily regret my choice
in major and minor (3D animation/graphic design), but I started to after
many failed attempts at securing a foot in the door ANYWHERE. I was willing
to do any grunt work, even if it wasn't related to my field of choice. I
fell back on graphic design after realizing I wasn't "good enough" to get
into gaming (so many industries I've changed to want to work in: film,
television, gaming was the final). Even then, it was difficult, but I still
tried to participate in anything I could, even setting out my own "side
business". Honestly, if it weren't for my father (I ended up working for
him as a junior service technician, but he made certain if anyone in that
company needed any graphic work done, to seek me out) and my
brother-in-law, I'd likely have even less to show on my portfolio, and even
less experience. In May of this year, literally the day before my birthday,
I FINALLY secured a position with a Fortune 500 company that is in the
restaurant business. I may not be doing exactly what I wanted, or set out
to, but the way I see it is at least it's a foot in the door and who knows,
things could change. I still hope for a position in 3D, but since I
couldn't get a foot in the door, or even anything for my side business, I
became discouraged and lacked the motivation to work on any projects to add
to my demo reel/portfolio. Such is life, but I am eternally grateful for
what I have now. Crazy how things change, though.

On a side note, since you mentioned computers essentially made many lives
"easier", I do wonder if that's what non-designers assume - that it's easy
to design. I've designed more logos than anything and I still struggle to
"see" what a client may be envisioning, and it can be frustrating when they
don't listen to your insight in design (color choices, shapes, etc). Don't
I wish it were so simple. If that was the case, everyone would do it...
most are, and it shows. I don't mean that to be insulting, but you get what
I mean. :o)

Young Dinosaur Denise :o)

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:18 PM Deborah Chandler <debchandler411 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Denise,
>
> There was a time, pre-computer, when us designers had to do everything
> manually and it held more value, because not every Tom, Dick and Happy had
> the tools to create it, let alone the talent. We used T-squares (or
> parallel rules), triangles, mechanical board, X-Acto knives, galleys of
> typesetting sent out to a service bureau, we did our own color separations,
> used acetate or Rubylith overlays, registration marks, or glued it all down
> with rubber cement or wax. Created our own black and white images in the
> "stat room" (breathed in some nasty chemicals, too)
>
> Now, with personal computers a dime a dozen, *anyone* can create what is
> called "graphic design". But that does not mean they have our in-depth
> education and years of experience. I have a Bachelors in Graphic Design
> from Mass College of Art from 1983, the year right before the advent of Mac
> computers. I'm getting all nostalgic...
>
> Those bicycle messengers in Boston were so kickass, dodging and weaving
> through traffic with no helmets, to get a big rush job back to us on the
> waterfront from the service bureau in Southie before they closed. We didn't
> have fax machines back then. Crazy how much has changed. We had to really
> think and plan our design executions. Mistakes cost us money. Now, it's
> just a Command Z.
>
> Dinosaur Designer Deb
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:33 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Kris,
>>
>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>
>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>
>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor
>>> as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*.
>>> What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of
>>> what a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.
>>>
>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>
>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>> your company name.
>>>>
>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>
>>>> Think about it.
>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>
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From denisefbatalha at gmail.com  Thu Sep 26 20:15:17 2019
From: denisefbatalha at gmail.com (Denise Batalha)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 16:15:17 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>

Aaron,

This is a GREAT template to go by!!

Denise

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:

> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear
> https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>
> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
> services:
>
>    - Paid work
>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>    20% of my annual work hours.
>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>
> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take
> the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer
> is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Kris,
>>
>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>
>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>
>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor
>>> as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind *thrive*.
>>> What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of
>>> what a project *actually* costs which repeats this unethical cycle.
>>>
>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>
>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>> your company name.
>>>>
>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>
>>>> Think about it.
>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>
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From the at otherrealm.org  Thu Sep 26 23:26:49 2019
From: the at otherrealm.org (Aaron E-J)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:26:49 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>

This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair wage got me 
thinking of an idea I had a while back. The idea is a kind of 'jobs 
fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended would be 
either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.The amount of time that 
people spend competing for: first a college degree, then a job, then 
maybe funding for a business idea, is enormous.It can often result in 
needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most of your time 
doing things in areas you are not passionate about. Constantly needing 
to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone else who 
got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and 
desire to interact with others.On the other side, someone looking to 
hire the right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading 
through tons of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you 
actually want to hire.And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly 
needing to turn people down because they are not the right fit feels 
horrible.

The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in two stages.

The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering phase. Job 
seekers would fill out an online form detailing their skills and 
interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved problems they 
had.Employers (worker coops and businesses that agree to not throw their 
employees under the proverbial bus if the job does not work out) would 
sign up and agree to employ people to work /with/ them and not /for/ 
them.Business investors and venture capitalists would sign up and work 
on forming business ideas with people who do not see an existing role 
with any of the existing business that are hiring.

Then the second stage would be the actual conference where everyone gets 
to know each other and job seekers and job fillers seek mutual skills 
and interests.The people who do not have career goals and skills in line 
with those being sought, and those with business ideas they are looking 
to actualize, would work with the business investors and venture 
capitalists. Together, they would form new worker cooperative businesses 
around the solutions previously identified in the first stage that 
everyone on the table can get behind.These cooperatives would act as 
holons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each 
independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's 
resources to some extent.There would also be a buffer fund established 
that all the cooperatives earning a positive income would contribute to 
and those needing a more income could draw from.The way the investors 
would get compensated is that they would be seen as one of the 
cooperatives.If the investors want to withdraw some of their investment, 
their financial balance would be negative and therefore a proportion of 
the buffer fund will go to them.This siphoning of money to an investor 
will only continue until a previously agreed upon return on investment 
is achieved or the person invests more money back into the system. 
Because the contribution will only be a portion of the /profit/, if some 
or all cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to 
contribute to the buffer.Obviously exact details will need to be worked 
out when more people get involved, but that is the general way I am 
envisioning the financing working. It may also make sense to involve 
colleges and others in the education sphere.They could be seen as 
business investors. Although they may not be providing financial 
support, they can still provide significant resources and as a result 
have a share of the profit.However, the exact nature of their 
compensation would need to be figured out because education is rarely 
easily quantifiable.

The important point in all this is that people are not competing ? there 
would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and no one is forced 
to do things they have no desire to do (of course it may be necessary 
for some people to do undesired tasks, but these tasks should be for the 
purpose of fulfilling desired goals).

What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested in working on 
it with me?I would not be surprised if we could get some grant funding 
to get the ball rolling.


Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
> Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still involved 
> with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>
> Deb
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux <todd at toddlemieux.com 
> <mailto:todd at toddlemieux.com>> wrote:
>
>     Great replies, and I completely agree.
>
>     I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of
>     creative services (designers, web developers, photographers,
>     musicians, etc) ?contests? to get essentially free work (and
>     usually underpaid, for the ?winner?, if there is any payment
>     involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>
>     Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar
>     contest for bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You
>     get the point.
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Todd
>
>     -------------------
>
>     Todd M. LeMieux
>     413.237.6869
>     [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>
>     Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>? | LinkedIn
>     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/> | Facebook
>     <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>
>     Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>
>
>     On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via
>     Hidden-discuss (hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>) wrote:
>
>>     Hi Jessica,
>>
>>     I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business
>>     which offers services to help people thrive, then paying for
>>     graphic design services are helping a qualified graphic designer
>>     to "thrive".
>>
>>     What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only
>>     willing to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned
>>     upon in the graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a
>>     restaurant and you ask them to serve you 6 different dishes, you
>>     try each one, and only pay for the one you found tasty. You would
>>     never do that. Not many professions deal with?this issue the way
>>     creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among others, speak
>>     up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (PEGS)
>>     for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
>>     adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>
>>     You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people
>>     do contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please
>>     be aware that it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one,
>>     kindly request that you choose to hire a qualified graphic
>>     designer and negotiate fees that pay them a good rate for their
>>     good work. If you are not familiar with this hiring process, how
>>     to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are many folks
>>     here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
>>     quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various
>>     aspects of the process through to completion.
>>
>>     Best on this project,
>>     Deb
>>
>>     On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via
>>     Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>     <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi All,
>>
>>         I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a
>>         customized deck of /Connection Cards/, which are used in a
>>         program that helps participants get to know new people, build
>>         social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a
>>         question that participants answer as part of the program.
>>         There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>         email jessica at growingwellness.life
>>         <mailto:jessica at growingwellness.life> for entry guidelines.
>>         Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>
>>         Thanks!
>>         Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>>         --
>>
>>
>>         Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>         www.growingwellness.life
>>         413-548-4688
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:
>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>         Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>         <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>         You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>>         Discussion list.
>>         If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the
>>         Members
>>         page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>>     Discussion list.
>>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members

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From shel at principledprofit.com  Fri Sep 27 00:55:26 2019
From: shel at principledprofit.com (Shel Horowitz)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 20:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
Message-ID: <CADG-Mh12+-DZp+hPs9rXSK+JdtbTniTazp3h6v5L95kG-oZNaQ@mail.gmail.com>

I like it. If you have these ideas sufficiently fleshed out, there may be a
book in it. Does the word "holon" relate to "holocracy"?

If you decide to go that route, I have a lot of experience nurturing people
on the path from wanabee writer to well-published and well-marketed
author--and as a 50-year activist, I *love* working on change-the-world
book projects. Let me know if you'd like info.

Shel Horowitz - "The Transformpreneur"(sm)
________________________________________________
Watch (and please share) my TEDx Talk,
"Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
*http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>**
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>*
(move your mouse to "event videos")

Contact me to bake in profitability while addressing hunger,
poverty, war, and catastrophic climate change

Twitter: @shelhorowitz

* First business ever to be Green America Gold Certified
* Inducted into the National Environmental Hall of Fame

http://goingbeyondsustainability.com
mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com * 413-586-2388
Award-winning, best-selling author of 10 books. Latest:
Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World (co-authored with Jay Conrad Levinson)

_________________________________________________


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:26 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

>             This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair wage
> got me thinking of an idea I had a while back.  The idea is a kind of
> 'jobs fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended would be
> either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.  The amount of time
> that people spend competing for: first a college degree, then a job, then
> maybe funding for a business idea, is enormous.  It can often result in
> needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most of your time
> doing things in areas you are not passionate about.  Constantly needing
> to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone else who
> got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and desire
> to interact with others.  On the other side, someone looking to hire the
> right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading through tons
> of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you actually want to
> hire.  And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly needing to turn
> people down because they are not the right fit feels horrible.
>
>             The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in two
> stages.
>
>             The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering
> phase.  Job seekers would fill out an online form detailing their skills
> and interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved problems they had.  Employers
> (worker coops and businesses that agree to not throw their employees under
> the proverbial bus if the job does not work out) would sign up and agree to
> employ people to work *with* them and not *for* them.  Business investors
> and venture capitalists would sign up and work on forming business ideas
> with people who do not see an existing role with any of the existing
> business that are hiring.
>
>             Then the second stage would be the actual conference where
> everyone gets to know each other and job seekers and job fillers seek
> mutual skills and interests.  The people who do not have career goals and
> skills in line with those being sought, and those with business ideas they
> are looking to actualize, would work with the business investors and
> venture capitalists.  Together, they would form new worker cooperative
> businesses around the solutions previously identified in the first stage
> that everyone on the table can get behind.  These cooperatives would act
> as holons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each
> independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's
> resources to some extent.  There would also be a buffer fund established
> that all the cooperatives earning a positive income would contribute to and
> those needing a more income could draw from.  The way the investors would
> get compensated is that they would be seen as one of the cooperatives.  If
> the investors want to withdraw some of their investment, their financial
> balance would be negative and therefore a proportion of the buffer fund
> will go to them.  This siphoning of money to an investor will only
> continue until a previously agreed upon return on investment is achieved or
> the person invests more money back into the system.  Because the
> contribution will only be a portion of the *profit*, if some or all
> cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to contribute to
> the buffer.  Obviously exact details will need to be worked out when more
> people get involved, but that is the general way I am envisioning the
> financing working.  It may also make sense to involve colleges and others
> in the education sphere.  They could be seen as business investors.  Although
> they may not be providing financial support, they can still provide
> significant resources and as a result have a share of the profit.  However,
> the exact nature of their compensation would need to be figured out because
> education is rarely easily quantifiable.
>
>             The important point in all this is that people are not
> competing ? there would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and
> no one is forced to do things they have no desire to do (of course it may
> be necessary for some people to do undesired tasks, but these tasks should
> be for the purpose of fulfilling desired goals).
>             What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested in
> working on it with me?  I would not be surprised if we could get some
> grant funding to get the ball rolling.
>
>
> Aaron E-J
> The Other Realm LLChttp://otherrealm.orghttp://theotherrealm.org (Blog)
>
> On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still involved
> with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>
> Deb
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux <todd at toddlemieux.com> wrote:
>
>> Great replies, and I completely agree.
>>
>> I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of creative
>> services (designers, web developers, photographers, musicians, etc)
>> ?contests? to get essentially free work (and usually underpaid, for the
>> ?winner?, if there is any payment involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>>
>> Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar contest
>> for bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You get the point.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Todd
>>
>> -------------------
>>
>> Todd M. LeMieux
>> 413.237.6869
>> [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>>
>> Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
>> <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>>
>> Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>>
>> On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss (
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jessica,
>>
>> I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
>> offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
>> services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".
>>
>> What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing
>> to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the
>> graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask
>> them to serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for
>> the one you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
>> with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
>> others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
>> (PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
>> adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>
>> You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
>> contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
>> it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
>> choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
>> them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
>> hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
>> many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
>> quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
>> process through to completion.
>>
>> Best on this project,
>> Deb
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>> list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From the at otherrealm.org  Fri Sep 27 01:41:40 2019
From: the at otherrealm.org (Aaron E-J)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 21:41:40 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <CADG-Mh12+-DZp+hPs9rXSK+JdtbTniTazp3h6v5L95kG-oZNaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
 <CADG-Mh12+-DZp+hPs9rXSK+JdtbTniTazp3h6v5L95kG-oZNaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d93de41-6ffa-39c7-c0f7-80ac45381b26@otherrealm.org>

Thanks, I was actually thinking of writing a book on why competition is 
tremendously inefficient and costly in almost all situations, the 
economy and social change being some of the most pronounced.I want to 
not only lay out my reasoning as to why it is and why it, paradoxically, 
is still the predominate means of getting things done in society, but 
also give some alternatives. You suggesting I write a book on it, 
unprovoked, makes me think maybe I should put more effort into getting 
it done!

A holon is something that is both a whole and a part at the same time 
and a holarchy is a connection between holons and holarchy is where the 
term holocracy gets its name.

Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-26 8:55 PM, Shel Horowitz wrote:
> I like it. If you have these ideas sufficiently fleshed out, there may 
> be a book in it. Does the word "holon" relate to "holocracy"?
>
> If you decide to go that route, I have a lot of experience nurturing 
> people on the path from wanabee writer to well-published and 
> well-marketed author--and as a 50-year activist, I *love* working on 
> change-the-world book projects. Let me know if you'd like info.
>
> Shel Horowitz - "The Transformpreneur"(sm)
> ________________________________________________
> Watch (and please share) my TEDx Talk,
> "Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
> _http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809__<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>_
> (move your mouse to "event videos")
>
> Contact me to bake in profitability while addressing hunger,
> poverty, war, and catastrophic climate change
>
> Twitter: @shelhorowitz
>
> * First business ever to be Green America Gold Certified
> * Inducted into the National Environmental Hall of Fame
>
> http://goingbeyondsustainability.com 
> <http://goingbeyondsustainability.com/>
> mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com 
> <mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com>?* 413-586-2388 <tel:413-586-2388>
> Award-winning, best-selling author of 10 books. Latest:
> Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World (co-authored with Jay Conrad 
> Levinson)
>
> _________________________________________________
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:26 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss 
> <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
> <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>
>     This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair wage got
>     me thinking of an idea I had a while back. The idea is a kind of
>     'jobs fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended
>     would be either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.The
>     amount of time that people spend competing for: first a college
>     degree, then a job, then maybe funding for a business idea, is
>     enormous.It can often result in needing to compromise your moral
>     principles and spend most of your time doing things in areas you
>     are not passionate about. Constantly needing to be judged and
>     being told that you are not as good as someone else who got the
>     job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and
>     desire to interact with others.On the other side, someone looking
>     to hire the right person has to spend a considerable amount of
>     time wading through tons of applicants before eventually arriving
>     at someone you actually want to hire.And if you have an ounce of
>     empathy, constantly needing to turn people down because they are
>     not the right fit feels horrible.
>
>     The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in two stages.
>
>     The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering
>     phase. Job seekers would fill out an online form detailing their
>     skills and interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved
>     problems they had.Employers (worker coops and businesses that
>     agree to not throw their employees under the proverbial bus if the
>     job does not work out) would sign up and agree to employ people to
>     work /with/ them and not /for/ them.Business investors and venture
>     capitalists would sign up and work on forming business ideas with
>     people who do not see an existing role with any of the existing
>     business that are hiring.
>
>     Then the second stage would be the actual conference where
>     everyone gets to know each other and job seekers and job fillers
>     seek mutual skills and interests.The people who do not have career
>     goals and skills in line with those being sought, and those with
>     business ideas they are looking to actualize, would work with the
>     business investors and venture capitalists. Together, they would
>     form new worker cooperative businesses around the solutions
>     previously identified in the first stage that everyone on the
>     table can get behind.These cooperatives would act as holons
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each
>     independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's
>     resources to some extent.There would also be a buffer fund
>     established that all the cooperatives earning a positive income
>     would contribute to and those needing a more income could draw
>     from.The way the investors would get compensated is that they
>     would be seen as one of the cooperatives.If the investors want to
>     withdraw some of their investment, their financial balance would
>     be negative and therefore a proportion of the buffer fund will go
>     to them.This siphoning of money to an investor will only continue
>     until a previously agreed upon return on investment is achieved or
>     the person invests more money back into the system. Because the
>     contribution will only be a portion of the /profit/, if some or
>     all cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to
>     contribute to the buffer.Obviously exact details will need to be
>     worked out when more people get involved, but that is the general
>     way I am envisioning the financing working. It may also make sense
>     to involve colleges and others in the education sphere.They could
>     be seen as business investors. Although they may not be providing
>     financial support, they can still provide significant resources
>     and as a result have a share of the profit.However, the exact
>     nature of their compensation would need to be figured out because
>     education is rarely easily quantifiable.
>
>     The important point in all this is that people are not competing ?
>     there would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and no
>     one is forced to do things they have no desire to do (of course it
>     may be necessary for some people to do undesired tasks, but these
>     tasks should be for the purpose of fulfilling desired goals).
>
>     What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested in
>     working on it with me?I would not be surprised if we could get
>     some grant funding to get the ball rolling.
>
>
>     Aaron E-J
>     The Other Realm LLC
>     http://otherrealm.org
>     http://theotherrealm.org  (Blog)
>
>     On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>     Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still
>>     involved with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>>
>>     Deb
>>
>>
>>     On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux
>>     <todd at toddlemieux.com <mailto:todd at toddlemieux.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Great replies, and I completely agree.
>>
>>         I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of
>>         creative services (designers, web developers, photographers,
>>         musicians, etc) ?contests? to get essentially free work (and
>>         usually underpaid, for the ?winner?, if there is any payment
>>         involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>>
>>         Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a
>>         similar contest for bookkeeping services, or for legal
>>         representation? You get the point.
>>
>>         Sincerely,
>>         Todd
>>
>>         -------------------
>>
>>         Todd M. LeMieux
>>         413.237.6869
>>         [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>>
>>         Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux> | LinkedIn
>>         <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/> | Facebook
>>         <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>>
>>         Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>>
>>
>>         On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via
>>         Hidden-discuss (hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>         <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>) wrote:
>>
>>>         Hi Jessica,
>>>
>>>         I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making
>>>         business which offers services to help people thrive, then
>>>         paying for graphic design services are helping a qualified
>>>         graphic designer to "thrive".
>>>
>>>         What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are
>>>         only willing to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work
>>>         is frowned upon in the graphic design industry. Imagine you
>>>         sit down at a restaurant and you ask them to serve you 6
>>>         different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for the one
>>>         you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many
>>>         professions deal with?this issue the way creatives do. And
>>>         the Graphic Artists Guild, among others, speak up about it,
>>>         have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (PEGS) for
>>>         just these types of issues, and support their members as
>>>         they adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>>
>>>         You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other
>>>         people do contests like this and thought it was okay to do.
>>>         But please be aware that it is not accepted in our industry,
>>>         and I for one, kindly request that you choose to hire a
>>>         qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay them
>>>         a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar
>>>         with this hiring process, how to choose a qualified
>>>         designer, I am sure there are many folks here who can help
>>>         you out with that, and some will be willing to quote on your
>>>         project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
>>>         process through to completion.
>>>
>>>         Best on this project,
>>>         Deb
>>>
>>>         On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via
>>>         Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>         <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Hi All,
>>>
>>>             I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a
>>>             customized deck of /Connection Cards/, which are used in
>>>             a program that helps participants get to know new
>>>             people, build social connections, and develop
>>>             friendships. Each card has a question that participants
>>>             answer as part of the program. There will be a $150
>>>             prize for the winning design. You may email
>>>             jessica at growingwellness.life
>>>             <mailto:jessica at growingwellness.life> for entry
>>>             guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be
>>>             interested.
>>>
>>>             Thanks!
>>>             Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>
>>>             Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>             www.growingwellness.life <http://www.growingwellness.life>
>>>             413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>             Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:
>>>             http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>             Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>             <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>>
>>>             You are receiving this because you are on the
>>>             Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>             If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to
>>>             the Members
>>>             page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>             http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:
>>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>         Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>         <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>>
>>>         You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>>>         Discussion list.
>>>         If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the
>>>         Members
>>>         page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net  <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>
>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>     Discussion list.
>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>

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From cgdutton7 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 27 10:50:24 2019
From: cgdutton7 at gmail.com (Christine Dutton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 06:50:24 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
Message-ID: <CAN0-QE7v3LC8j5+Ovx4kSROUe5pfMAZLrK4XrUi76==CFF+tKw@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting proposal! I recommend some language adjustments to the
proposal. :
(a) An alternative term to the term "job fair"
(b)  An alternative to the term "holon" that is more commonly used
(c) Changes to this language to form more positive language: "It can often
result in needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most of
your time doing things in areas you are not passionate about.  Constantly
needing to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone
else who got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing
and desire to interact with others.  On the other side, someone looking to
hire the right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading
through tons of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you
actually want to hire.  And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly
needing to turn people down because they are not the right fit feels
horrible."

Also, there is a lot of knowledge to gain from talking to professionals in
the worker cooperative and grocery cooperative industries. There is vast
amounts of knowledge through some organizations and consultants associated
with these industries.

Regards, An HR & Marketing Consultant
*Christine Dutton*
*Dutton Consulting *
*413-626-6377*



On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:38 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

>             This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair wage
> got me thinking of an idea I had a while back.  The idea is a kind of
> 'jobs fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended would be
> either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.  The amount of time
> that people spend competing for: first a college degree, then a job, then
> maybe funding for a business idea, is enormous.  It can often result in
> needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most of your time
> doing things in areas you are not passionate about.  Constantly needing
> to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone else who
> got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and desire
> to interact with others.  On the other side, someone looking to hire the
> right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading through tons
> of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you actually want to
> hire.  And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly needing to turn
> people down because they are not the right fit feels horrible.
>
>             The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in two
> stages.
>
>             The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering
> phase.  Job seekers would fill out an online form detailing their skills
> and interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved problems they had.  Employers
> (worker coops and businesses that agree to not throw their employees under
> the proverbial bus if the job does not work out) would sign up and agree to
> employ people to work *with* them and not *for* them.  Business investors
> and venture capitalists would sign up and work on forming business ideas
> with people who do not see an existing role with any of the existing
> business that are hiring.
>
>             Then the second stage would be the actual conference where
> everyone gets to know each other and job seekers and job fillers seek
> mutual skills and interests.  The people who do not have career goals and
> skills in line with those being sought, and those with business ideas they
> are looking to actualize, would work with the business investors and
> venture capitalists.  Together, they would form new worker cooperative
> businesses around the solutions previously identified in the first stage
> that everyone on the table can get behind.  These cooperatives would act
> as holons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each
> independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's
> resources to some extent.  There would also be a buffer fund established
> that all the cooperatives earning a positive income would contribute to and
> those needing a more income could draw from.  The way the investors would
> get compensated is that they would be seen as one of the cooperatives.  If
> the investors want to withdraw some of their investment, their financial
> balance would be negative and therefore a proportion of the buffer fund
> will go to them.  This siphoning of money to an investor will only
> continue until a previously agreed upon return on investment is achieved or
> the person invests more money back into the system.  Because the
> contribution will only be a portion of the *profit*, if some or all
> cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to contribute to
> the buffer.  Obviously exact details will need to be worked out when more
> people get involved, but that is the general way I am envisioning the
> financing working.  It may also make sense to involve colleges and others
> in the education sphere.  They could be seen as business investors.  Although
> they may not be providing financial support, they can still provide
> significant resources and as a result have a share of the profit.  However,
> the exact nature of their compensation would need to be figured out because
> education is rarely easily quantifiable.
>
>             The important point in all this is that people are not
> competing ? there would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and
> no one is forced to do things they have no desire to do (of course it may
> be necessary for some people to do undesired tasks, but these tasks should
> be for the purpose of fulfilling desired goals).
>             What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested in
> working on it with me?  I would not be surprised if we could get some
> grant funding to get the ball rolling.
>
>
> Aaron E-J
> The Other Realm LLChttp://otherrealm.orghttp://theotherrealm.org (Blog)
>
> On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>
> Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still involved
> with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>
> Deb
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux <todd at toddlemieux.com> wrote:
>
>> Great replies, and I completely agree.
>>
>> I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of creative
>> services (designers, web developers, photographers, musicians, etc)
>> ?contests? to get essentially free work (and usually underpaid, for the
>> ?winner?, if there is any payment involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>>
>> Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar contest
>> for bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You get the point.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Todd
>>
>> -------------------
>>
>> Todd M. LeMieux
>> 413.237.6869
>> [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>>
>> Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
>> <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>>
>> Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>>
>> On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss (
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jessica,
>>
>> I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
>> offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
>> services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".
>>
>> What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing
>> to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the
>> graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask
>> them to serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for
>> the one you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
>> with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
>> others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
>> (PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
>> adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>
>> You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
>> contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
>> it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
>> choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
>> them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
>> hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
>> many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
>> quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
>> process through to completion.
>>
>> Best on this project,
>> Deb
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may
>>> email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass
>>> along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>> list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
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From bklee at azurelink.com  Fri Sep 27 15:52:06 2019
From: bklee at azurelink.com (B. Kimo Lee)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:52:06 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>

Greetings HT,

Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about The Other Job Fair.

I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.

Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.

At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.

Happy Fall,
Kimo



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On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Aaron,
> 
> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
> 
> Denise
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
> 
> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative services:
> Paid work
> Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than 20% of my annual work hours.
> Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping). 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> Kris,
> 
> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or individual lacking the funds, can be.
> 
> Denise
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this contest to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
> 
> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present themselves. 
> 
> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers. 
> 
> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind thrive. What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what a project actually costs which repeats this unethical cycle. 
> 
> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset. 
> 
> Cheers, Kris
> 
> sustainabilitydesigner.com
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage for a graphic artist
> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your company name.
> 
> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
> OR just hire an artist.
> Think about it.
> 
> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of Connection Cards, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> Jessica
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>> www.growingwellness.life
>> 413-548-4688                                                           
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
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From aaron at taylorwaldman.com  Fri Sep 27 16:57:59 2019
From: aaron at taylorwaldman.com (Aaron Taylor-Waldman)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 12:57:59 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
Message-ID: <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
advocating for?

I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest


I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.

An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid pitches
are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work get paid.
But design students?

Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a
> gem.


Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the
hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never encourage a
young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests. Design
students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed design
projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any
freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business
should pay for design services.

My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.

Cheers,
Aaron



On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:

> Greetings HT,
>
> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
> Other Job Fair*.
>
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
> a gem.
>
> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>
> Happy Fall,
> Kimo
>
>
>
> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
> eCommerce Development
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 42 South Street, Suite 4
> Milford, NH 03055
> (603) 769-4224
> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
> Aaron,
>
> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>
> Denise
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>
>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear
>> https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>
>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>> services:
>>
>>    - Paid work
>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>
>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Kris,
>>>
>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>
>>> Denise
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>
>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>
>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>
>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>
>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
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>
>
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From gshaneyfelt at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 27 17:18:52 2019
From: gshaneyfelt at yahoo.com (Garth)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 13:18:52 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>

I dunno internships are a thing.  

Garth Shaneyfelt
Let?s Create a Better World


> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you advocating for?
> 
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
> 
> 
> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
> 
> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work get paid. But design students?
> 
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
>  
> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the hope that they will occasionally get a reward. I would never encourage a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests. Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business should pay for design services. 
> 
> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Aaron
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>> Greetings HT,
>> 
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about The Other Job Fair.
>> 
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>> 
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
>> 
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>> 
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Aaron,
>>> 
>>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>> 
>>> Denise
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>> 
>>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative services:
>>>> Paid work
>>>> Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than 20% of my annual work hours.
>>>> Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping). 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>> Kris,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Denise
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this contest to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present themselves. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind thrive. What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what a project actually costs which repeats this unethical cycle. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your company name.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of Connection Cards, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>>>> 413-548-4688                                                                                       
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>> 
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
> 
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From bklee at azurelink.com  Fri Sep 27 17:34:35 2019
From: bklee at azurelink.com (B. Kimo Lee)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 13:34:35 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53FA3887-84BA-4CFA-8C2A-2A7276B38148@azurelink.com>

Hi Aaron,

You can?t really combine the ad agency pitch with the design contest. That was an aside. Different levels, in my opinion.

Sticking to the contest theme, we creatives all know it comes down to the quality of the work and the underlying thought process when we consider hiring a student. If you can communicate that ? your design sense ? with student work done in the class, fine. Self-directed work shows initiative. I?m certainly not saying that students should work for free. I am saying that I think real-world experience is a positive. Think of it as being like having an intern. So I think the contest thing works from that perspective.

Anyway, it?s a very competitive landscape out there. We?ve got freelancer websites out there like fiverr.com where you can hire someone for $5-$15/hour to do your design work or other creative tasks. Never used that site before, but it looks intriguing and I know some business owners who have used their freelancers. And if the work is good, there?s certainly the likelihood of profit. And there?s Upwork, too, which I am familiar with.

Best,
Kimo



On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:

> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you advocating for?
> 
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
> 
> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
> 
> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work get paid. But design students?
> 
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
>  
> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the hope that they will occasionally get a reward. I would never encourage a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests. Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business should pay for design services. 
> 
> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Aaron
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
> Greetings HT,
> 
> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about The Other Job Fair.
> 
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
> 
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
> 
> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
> 
> Happy Fall,
> Kimo
> 
> 
> 
> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
> eCommerce Development
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 42 South Street, Suite 4
> Milford, NH 03055
> (603) 769-4224
> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
> 
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>> 
>> Denise
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>> 
>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative services:
>> Paid work
>> Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than 20% of my annual work hours.
>> Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping). 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>> Kris,
>> 
>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or individual lacking the funds, can be.
>> 
>> Denise
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this contest to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>> 
>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present themselves. 
>> 
>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers. 
>> 
>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind thrive. What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what a project actually costs which repeats this unethical cycle. 
>> 
>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset. 
>> 
>> Cheers, Kris
>> 
>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage for a graphic artist
>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your company name.
>> 
>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>> OR just hire an artist.
>> Think about it.
>> 
>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of Connection Cards, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jessica
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>> 413-548-4688                                                           
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>> 
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
> 

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From tess.gadwa at yesexactly.com  Fri Sep 27 17:58:37 2019
From: tess.gadwa at yesexactly.com (Tess Gadwa)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:58:37 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGZC9ffvAGosyxo-29q0hFpxegH2iTsZmmLaKCvq55KXPA07zQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think the area where it becomes problematic is when there is so much free
or low cost work available that it depresses the overall quality of
services offered. This happens a LOT in design and creative fields. To use
a somewhat loaded analogy, think about Walmart and independent retail. I'd
put the blame more on Fiverrr than on contests and internships, though.

Tess Gadwa
Lotus.fm

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:33 AM Garth via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> I dunno internships are a thing.
>
> Garth Shaneyfelt
> Let?s Create a Better World
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
> advocating for?
>
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>
>
> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
> 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>
> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid
> pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work
> get paid. But design students?
>
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>
>
> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the
> hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never encourage
> a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests.
> Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed
> design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any
> freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business
> should pay for design services.
>
> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings HT,
>>
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
>> Other Job Fair*.
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
>> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
>> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
>> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>>
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>>
>>
>>
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>
>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>> services:
>>>
>>>    - Paid work
>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>
>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kris,
>>>>
>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>
>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From aaron at taylorwaldman.com  Fri Sep 27 18:15:28 2019
From: aaron at taylorwaldman.com (Aaron Taylor-Waldman)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:15:28 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <53FA3887-84BA-4CFA-8C2A-2A7276B38148@azurelink.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53FA3887-84BA-4CFA-8C2A-2A7276B38148@azurelink.com>
Message-ID: <CADSHD3uhfg+fezi9Urpw8PatuLsvPEjEbKDzewKTZdd0YVCzew@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kimo, thanks for your reply,

I am having difficulty understanding your perspective. Who are you
advocating for? Designers, or companies who find it acceptable to not
compensate designers for their time when entering (and not winning)
contests?

Paying $5/hour for design work sure sucks, for almost everyone, but at
least they're being compensated for their time.

Regards,
Aaron
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From kiernan at greenearthpc.us  Fri Sep 27 18:20:34 2019
From: kiernan at greenearthpc.us (Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:20:34 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Garth,

Legally speaking an internship Must be paid if the business is profiting
from the work of the intern. Unpaid internships require that the intern be
the primary beneficiary of such an experience/relationship (
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm)  That means work of an
intern cannot displace work of a paid employee and must be primarily
educational for the intern.

For this reason many many more modern internships are paid, paid less but
paid.

Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill

Pronouns: He/Him
Green Earth Computers - Computer & Smartphone Repair

20A Crafts Ave

Northampton, MA 01060

www.greenearthpc.us
413-282-8324


See what people are saying -- Check us out on Yelp!
<http://www.yelp.com/biz/green-earth-computers-northampton-4>


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:33 PM Garth via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> I dunno internships are a thing.
>
> Garth Shaneyfelt
> Let?s Create a Better World
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
> advocating for?
>
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>
>
> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
> 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>
> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid
> pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work
> get paid. But design students?
>
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>
>
> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the
> hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never encourage
> a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests.
> Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed
> design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any
> freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business
> should pay for design services.
>
> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings HT,
>>
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
>> Other Job Fair*.
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
>> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
>> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
>> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>>
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>>
>>
>>
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>
>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>> services:
>>>
>>>    - Paid work
>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>
>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kris,
>>>>
>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>
>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From bklee at azurelink.com  Fri Sep 27 18:26:43 2019
From: bklee at azurelink.com (B. Kimo Lee)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:26:43 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CADSHD3uhfg+fezi9Urpw8PatuLsvPEjEbKDzewKTZdd0YVCzew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53FA3887-84BA-4CFA-8C2A-2A7276B38148@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3uhfg+fezi9Urpw8PatuLsvPEjEbKDzewKTZdd0YVCzew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC32DB1E-A162-41AC-9839-866CB89BCCF0@azurelink.com>

Hi Aaron,

LoL! I guess if anyone, I might be advocating for Jessica. She could get a recommendation from an instructor at some design department to see if anyone is interested. She did mention a prize of $150 so check out some portfolios of those interested and just offer it to the person instead of a contest. They get interview experience and she gets a designer. The other unknown is we don?t know the scope. A "deck of cards" is pretty broad. 

Cheers,
Kimo



On Sep 27, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:

> Hi Kimo, thanks for your reply,
> 
> I am having difficulty understanding your perspective. Who are you advocating for? Designers, or companies who find it acceptable to not compensate designers for their time when entering (and not winning) contests?
> 
> Paying $5/hour for design work sure sucks, for almost everyone, but at least they're being compensated for their time. 
> 
> Regards,
> Aaron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From gshaneyfelt at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 27 18:29:43 2019
From: gshaneyfelt at yahoo.com (Garth)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:29:43 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
 <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429A7132-3D46-4BDA-B934-E7E759016318@yahoo.com>

Oh indeed!   I was just suggesting that a design student may want actual real world experience vs student portfolio.  

In other news, what if everything wasn?t just about monetizing :)
But yes at least in our current system, people should get paid for their work.  

Garth Shaneyfelt
Let?s Create a Better World


> On Sep 27, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill <kiernan at greenearthpc.us> wrote:
> 
> Garth,
> 
> Legally speaking an internship Must be paid if the business is profiting from the work of the intern. Unpaid internships require that the intern be the primary beneficiary of such an experience/relationship (https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm)  That means work of an intern cannot displace work of a paid employee and must be primarily educational for the intern. 
> 
> For this reason many many more modern internships are paid, paid less but paid. 
> 
> Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill
> Pronouns: He/Him
> Green Earth Computers - Computer & Smartphone Repair
> 20A Crafts Ave
> Northampton, MA 01060
> www.greenearthpc.us
> 413-282-8324
> 
> See what people are saying -- Check us out on Yelp! 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:33 PM Garth via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>> I dunno internships are a thing.  
>> 
>> Garth Shaneyfelt
>> Let?s Create a Better World
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you advocating for?
>>> 
>>>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>>> 
>>> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work get paid. But design students?
>>> 
>>>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
>>>  
>>> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the hope that they will occasionally get a reward. I would never encourage a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests. Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business should pay for design services. 
>>> 
>>> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money. 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Aaron
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>>>> Greetings HT,
>>>> 
>>>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about The Other Job Fair.
>>>> 
>>>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get a gem.
>>>> 
>>>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>>> 
>>>> Happy Fall,
>>>> Kimo
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>>>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>>>> eCommerce Development
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>>>> Milford, NH 03055
>>>> (603) 769-4224
>>>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>>>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Denise
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative services:
>>>>>> Paid work
>>>>>> Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than 20% of my annual work hours.
>>>>>> Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping). 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kris,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this contest to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present themselves. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind thrive. What results is that no one outside the creative community gets a sense of what a project actually costs which repeats this unethical cycle. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with your company name.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck of Connection Cards, which are used in a program that helps participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>>>>>> 413-548-4688                                                                                       
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>> 
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>> 
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
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From denisefbatalha at gmail.com  Fri Sep 27 18:54:55 2019
From: denisefbatalha at gmail.com (Denise Batalha)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:54:55 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAGZC9ffvAGosyxo-29q0hFpxegH2iTsZmmLaKCvq55KXPA07zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
 <CAGZC9ffvAGosyxo-29q0hFpxegH2iTsZmmLaKCvq55KXPA07zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJn0ZGxsvrstkwdBWwgADAev1M0hoWSmoc9iqocWER83Jzu1Ng@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with what Tess said. Also, they start teaching graphic design in
schools now (can't recall if it starts in high school, or earlier). Pretty
soon, the market will be saturated.

Denise

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:40 PM Tess Gadwa via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> I think the area where it becomes problematic is when there is so much
> free or low cost work available that it depresses the overall quality of
> services offered. This happens a LOT in design and creative fields. To use
> a somewhat loaded analogy, think about Walmart and independent retail. I'd
> put the blame more on Fiverrr than on contests and internships, though.
>
> Tess Gadwa
> Lotus.fm
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:33 AM Garth via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> I dunno internships are a thing.
>>
>> Garth Shaneyfelt
>> Let?s Create a Better World
>>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
>> advocating for?
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>>
>>
>> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
>> 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>>
>> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid
>> pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work
>> get paid. But design students?
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>>> a gem.
>>
>>
>> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with
>> the hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never
>> encourage a young design student to build their portfolio by
>> entering contests. Design students build a portfolio in school, or in
>> creating self-directed design projects. As a small design studio, I have
>> never asked any freelancer?including students?to work for free. A
>> for-profit business should pay for design services.
>>
>> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings HT,
>>>
>>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread
>>> about *The Other Job Fair*.
>>>
>>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ?
>>> design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out
>>> with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in
>>> school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have
>>> printed samples.
>>>
>>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you
>>> get a gem.
>>>
>>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>>
>>> Happy Fall,
>>> Kimo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>>> eCommerce Development
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>>> Milford, NH 03055
>>> (603) 769-4224
>>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>>
>>> Denise
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>>> services:
>>>>
>>>>    - Paid work
>>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more
>>>>    than 20% of my annual work hours.
>>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>>
>>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denise
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this
>>>>>> *contest* to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding
>>>>>> community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their
>>>>>> better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to
>>>>>> paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a
>>>>>> bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for
>>>>>> free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers
>>>>>> are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities
>>>>>> present themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line
>>>>>>> with your company name.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From cgdutton7 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 27 19:00:26 2019
From: cgdutton7 at gmail.com (Christine Dutton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:00:26 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
 <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN0-QE6+G5BpeVZZrHt09=U3S72OnN6z14bh7peDTeG-jucjuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Internships need to be primarily educational. If you don't have a graphic
artist on staff, then you wouldn't be displacing a worker. Organizations
may provide educational opportunities for the student while also expecting
contributions. Example: I have an NP client with interns contributing
branded video and graphic content. They are also conducting research on
social media strategy and planning. This is perfectly acceptable, if they
are learning from the experience (trying new softwares, learning through
research, etc...). I think some students would love this kind of project.
As an aside, leave initial organizational branding and logo design to the
professionals!
*Christine Dutton*
*Dutton Consulting *
*413-626-6377*



On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:41 PM Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Garth,
>
> Legally speaking an internship Must be paid if the business is profiting
> from the work of the intern. Unpaid internships require that the intern be
> the primary beneficiary of such an experience/relationship (
> https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm)  That means work of
> an intern cannot displace work of a paid employee and must be primarily
> educational for the intern.
>
> For this reason many many more modern internships are paid, paid less but
> paid.
>
> Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill
>
> Pronouns: He/Him
> Green Earth Computers - Computer & Smartphone Repair
>
> 20A Crafts Ave
>
> Northampton, MA 01060
>
> www.greenearthpc.us
> 413-282-8324
>
>
> See what people are saying -- Check us out on Yelp!
> <http://www.yelp.com/biz/green-earth-computers-northampton-4>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:33 PM Garth via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> I dunno internships are a thing.
>>
>> Garth Shaneyfelt
>> Let?s Create a Better World
>>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
>> advocating for?
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>>
>>
>> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
>> 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>>
>> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid
>> pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work
>> get paid. But design students?
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>>> a gem.
>>
>>
>> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with
>> the hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never
>> encourage a young design student to build their portfolio by
>> entering contests. Design students build a portfolio in school, or in
>> creating self-directed design projects. As a small design studio, I have
>> never asked any freelancer?including students?to work for free. A
>> for-profit business should pay for design services.
>>
>> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings HT,
>>>
>>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread
>>> about *The Other Job Fair*.
>>>
>>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ?
>>> design students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out
>>> with the same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in
>>> school during the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have
>>> printed samples.
>>>
>>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you
>>> get a gem.
>>>
>>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>>
>>> Happy Fall,
>>> Kimo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>>> eCommerce Development
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>>> Milford, NH 03055
>>> (603) 769-4224
>>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>>
>>> Denise
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>>> services:
>>>>
>>>>    - Paid work
>>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more
>>>>    than 20% of my annual work hours.
>>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>>
>>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kris,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denise
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this
>>>>>> *contest* to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding
>>>>>> community of pioneer valley creatives who so often have to go against their
>>>>>> better judgement and take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to
>>>>>> paid a gig), for barter, or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a
>>>>>> bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for
>>>>>> free or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers
>>>>>> are consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities
>>>>>> present themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line
>>>>>>> with your company name.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From todd at toddlemieux.com  Fri Sep 27 19:18:44 2019
From: todd at toddlemieux.com (Todd LeMieux)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 21:18:44 +0200
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <429A7132-3D46-4BDA-B934-E7E759016318@yahoo.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CADSHD3t_Wv9q83ViYkp9Lg7+je9OniYdw+-Y8k8nJd=rzufFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <189F1FF9-BCEB-4CF7-9BE4-9C5391AA923D@yahoo.com>
 <CAAEi5V++9NrCnMLrN4m3wCL7c19ySMOmkgF3Tw4jVYtLTujnCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <429A7132-3D46-4BDA-B934-E7E759016318@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAMKaZwi66E_WX8JXquYHbcF43jinqHA=X1fFB5nxyi0UwxZPNQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with everything Aaron stated, and would add that encouraging
students to work for free and/or enter contests only serves to continue
this mindset.

As a student, I charged less for my services?but I charged.

Best,
Todd


Untitled Document

-------------------

Todd M. LeMieux
413.237.6869
[Graphic Design + Creative Direction]

Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>

Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>

On September 27, 2019 at 2:41:33 PM, Garth via Hidden-discuss (
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:

Oh indeed!   I was just suggesting that a design student may want actual
real world experience vs student portfolio.

In other news, what if everything wasn?t just about monetizing :)
But yes at least in our current system, people should get paid for their
work.

Garth Shaneyfelt
Let?s Create a Better World


On Sep 27, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill <
kiernan at greenearthpc.us> wrote:

Garth,

Legally speaking an internship Must be paid if the business is profiting
from the work of the intern. Unpaid internships require that the intern be
the primary beneficiary of such an experience/relationship (
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm)  That means work of an
intern cannot displace work of a paid employee and must be primarily
educational for the intern.

For this reason many many more modern internships are paid, paid less but
paid.

Kiernan Gulick-Sherrill

Pronouns: He/Him
Green Earth Computers - Computer & Smartphone Repair

20A Crafts Ave

Northampton, MA 01060

www.greenearthpc.us
413-282-8324


See what people are saying -- Check us out on Yelp!
<http://www.yelp.com/biz/green-earth-computers-northampton-4>


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:33 PM Garth via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> I dunno internships are a thing.
>
> Garth Shaneyfelt
> Let?s Create a Better World
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Aaron Taylor-Waldman via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Kimo?and I have to ask, who are you
> advocating for?
>
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest
>
>
> I'm not buying it?and I caution all young designers to be careful about
> 'building your portfolio' claims. It's a red flag.
>
> An agency, sure they can handle new business expenses?though unpaid
> pitches are becoming a relic. And the people doing the actual pitch work
> get paid. But design students?
>
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>
>
> Professionals, and aspiring professionals, don't provide services with the
> hope that they will *occasionally* get a reward. I would never encourage
> a young design student to build their portfolio by entering contests.
> Design students build a portfolio in school, or in creating self-directed
> design projects. As a small design studio, I have never asked any
> freelancer?including students?to work for free. A for-profit business
> should pay for design services.
>
> My number one advice for designers out there: demand more money.
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:52 AM B. Kimo Lee <bklee at azurelink.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings HT,
>>
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
>> Other Job Fair*.
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
>> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
>> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
>> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>>
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>>
>>
>>
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>
>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>> services:
>>>
>>>    - Paid work
>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>
>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kris,
>>>>
>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>
>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
_______________________________________________
Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net

You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
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From the at otherrealm.org  Fri Sep 27 22:51:47 2019
From: the at otherrealm.org (Aaron E-J)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:51:47 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <CAN0-QE7v3LC8j5+Ovx4kSROUe5pfMAZLrK4XrUi76==CFF+tKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
 <CAN0-QE7v3LC8j5+Ovx4kSROUe5pfMAZLrK4XrUi76==CFF+tKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41dc2d1a-032b-b40d-e3e2-094001f3e460@otherrealm.org>

Oh, this text is just some very preliminary thoughts.I agree that 'job 
fair' is not the best name for it - if anyone has a better name, I'm all 
ears.

I wouldn't use 'holon' in public text without any reference.The reason I 
used it in this email is because I added a link to more information and 
I really like the concept. In retrospect, also because using one or two 
obscure terms that have a lot of relevance to the topic on hand makes 
people more engaged in the topic because not knowing something irks you 
and makes you need to find out more (didn't really think about that 
aspect of things at the time, but I think it is often the case, at least 
for the literarily inclined).

I totally agree that using negative condonation is not productive (hence 
why our government is in total stand still).That is actually the whole 
point of the project ? to get rid of resentment and be more 
productive.It is really hard to not do it though, and I guess in this 
context I was trying to lay out the case that no one is at fault, it is 
the system that is the problem.

I have been a strong proponent of the worker coop model for a long time 
and am a River Valley and Common Share food coop member (I actually 
served on the board of Common Share Coop a number of years back when it 
was still Amherst Community Coop).

Aaron E-J
The Other Realm LLC
http://otherrealm.org
http://theotherrealm.org (Blog)

On 2019-09-27 6:50 AM, Christine Dutton wrote:
> Interesting proposal! I recommend some language adjustments to the 
> proposal. :
> (a) An alternative term to the term "job fair"
> (b)? An alternative to the term "holon" that is more commonly used
> (c) Changes to this language to form more positive language: "It can 
> often result in needing to compromise your moral principles and spend 
> most of your time doing things in areas you are not passionate about. 
> Constantly needing to be judged and being told that you are not as 
> good as someone else who got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous 
> toll on your wellbeing and desire to interact with others.On the other 
> side, someone looking to hire the right person has to spend a 
> considerable amount of time wading through tons of applicants before 
> eventually arriving at someone you actually want to hire.And if you 
> have an ounce of empathy, constantly needing to turn people down 
> because they are not the right fit feels horrible."
>
> Also, there is a lot of knowledge to gain from talking?to 
> professionals in the worker cooperative and grocery cooperative 
> industries. There is vast amounts of knowledge?through some 
> organizations and consultants associated with these industries.
>
> Regards, An HR & Marketing Consultant
> *Christine Dutton*
> *Dutton Consulting *
> *413-626-6377*
> *
> *
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:38 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss 
> <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net 
> <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>
>     This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair wage got
>     me thinking of an idea I had a while back. The idea is a kind of
>     'jobs fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended
>     would be either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.The
>     amount of time that people spend competing for: first a college
>     degree, then a job, then maybe funding for a business idea, is
>     enormous.It can often result in needing to compromise your moral
>     principles and spend most of your time doing things in areas you
>     are not passionate about. Constantly needing to be judged and
>     being told that you are not as good as someone else who got the
>     job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and
>     desire to interact with others.On the other side, someone looking
>     to hire the right person has to spend a considerable amount of
>     time wading through tons of applicants before eventually arriving
>     at someone you actually want to hire.And if you have an ounce of
>     empathy, constantly needing to turn people down because they are
>     not the right fit feels horrible.
>
>     The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in two stages.
>
>     The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering
>     phase. Job seekers would fill out an online form detailing their
>     skills and interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved
>     problems they had.Employers (worker coops and businesses that
>     agree to not throw their employees under the proverbial bus if the
>     job does not work out) would sign up and agree to employ people to
>     work /with/ them and not /for/ them.Business investors and venture
>     capitalists would sign up and work on forming business ideas with
>     people who do not see an existing role with any of the existing
>     business that are hiring.
>
>     Then the second stage would be the actual conference where
>     everyone gets to know each other and job seekers and job fillers
>     seek mutual skills and interests.The people who do not have career
>     goals and skills in line with those being sought, and those with
>     business ideas they are looking to actualize, would work with the
>     business investors and venture capitalists. Together, they would
>     form new worker cooperative businesses around the solutions
>     previously identified in the first stage that everyone on the
>     table can get behind.These cooperatives would act as holons
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each
>     independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's
>     resources to some extent.There would also be a buffer fund
>     established that all the cooperatives earning a positive income
>     would contribute to and those needing a more income could draw
>     from.The way the investors would get compensated is that they
>     would be seen as one of the cooperatives.If the investors want to
>     withdraw some of their investment, their financial balance would
>     be negative and therefore a proportion of the buffer fund will go
>     to them.This siphoning of money to an investor will only continue
>     until a previously agreed upon return on investment is achieved or
>     the person invests more money back into the system. Because the
>     contribution will only be a portion of the /profit/, if some or
>     all cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to
>     contribute to the buffer.Obviously exact details will need to be
>     worked out when more people get involved, but that is the general
>     way I am envisioning the financing working. It may also make sense
>     to involve colleges and others in the education sphere.They could
>     be seen as business investors. Although they may not be providing
>     financial support, they can still provide significant resources
>     and as a result have a share of the profit.However, the exact
>     nature of their compensation would need to be figured out because
>     education is rarely easily quantifiable.
>
>     The important point in all this is that people are not competing ?
>     there would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and no
>     one is forced to do things they have no desire to do (of course it
>     may be necessary for some people to do undesired tasks, but these
>     tasks should be for the purpose of fulfilling desired goals).
>
>     What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested in
>     working on it with me?I would not be surprised if we could get
>     some grant funding to get the ball rolling.
>
>
>     Aaron E-J
>     The Other Realm LLC
>     http://otherrealm.org
>     http://theotherrealm.org  (Blog)
>
>     On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>     Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still
>>     involved with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>>
>>     Deb
>>
>>
>>     On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux
>>     <todd at toddlemieux.com <mailto:todd at toddlemieux.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Great replies, and I completely agree.
>>
>>         I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of
>>         creative services (designers, web developers, photographers,
>>         musicians, etc) ?contests? to get essentially free work (and
>>         usually underpaid, for the ?winner?, if there is any payment
>>         involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>>
>>         Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a
>>         similar contest for bookkeeping services, or for legal
>>         representation? You get the point.
>>
>>         Sincerely,
>>         Todd
>>
>>         -------------------
>>
>>         Todd M. LeMieux
>>         413.237.6869
>>         [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>>
>>         Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux> | LinkedIn
>>         <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/> | Facebook
>>         <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>>
>>         Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>>
>>
>>         On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via
>>         Hidden-discuss (hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>         <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>) wrote:
>>
>>>         Hi Jessica,
>>>
>>>         I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making
>>>         business which offers services to help people thrive, then
>>>         paying for graphic design services are helping a qualified
>>>         graphic designer to "thrive".
>>>
>>>         What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are
>>>         only willing to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work
>>>         is frowned upon in the graphic design industry. Imagine you
>>>         sit down at a restaurant and you ask them to serve you 6
>>>         different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for the one
>>>         you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many
>>>         professions deal with?this issue the way creatives do. And
>>>         the Graphic Artists Guild, among others, speak up about it,
>>>         have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (PEGS) for
>>>         just these types of issues, and support their members as
>>>         they adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>>
>>>         You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other
>>>         people do contests like this and thought it was okay to do.
>>>         But please be aware that it is not accepted in our industry,
>>>         and I for one, kindly request that you choose to hire a
>>>         qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay them
>>>         a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar
>>>         with this hiring process, how to choose a qualified
>>>         designer, I am sure there are many folks here who can help
>>>         you out with that, and some will be willing to quote on your
>>>         project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
>>>         process through to completion.
>>>
>>>         Best on this project,
>>>         Deb
>>>
>>>         On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via
>>>         Hidden-discuss <hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>         <mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Hi All,
>>>
>>>             I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a
>>>             customized deck of /Connection Cards/, which are used in
>>>             a program that helps participants get to know new
>>>             people, build social connections, and develop
>>>             friendships. Each card has a question that participants
>>>             answer as part of the program. There will be a $150
>>>             prize for the winning design. You may email
>>>             jessica at growingwellness.life
>>>             <mailto:jessica at growingwellness.life> for entry
>>>             guidelines. Please pass along to anyone who may be
>>>             interested.
>>>
>>>             Thanks!
>>>             Jessica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>
>>>             Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>             www.growingwellness.life <http://www.growingwellness.life>
>>>             413-548-4688
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>             Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:
>>>             http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>             Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>             <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>>
>>>             You are receiving this because you are on the
>>>             Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>             If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to
>>>             the Members
>>>             page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>             http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:
>>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>         Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>         <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>>
>>>         You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>>>         Discussion list.
>>>         If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the
>>>         Members
>>>         page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>         http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page:http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net  <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>>
>>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>     Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>     <mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net>
>
>     You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech
>     Discussion list.
>     If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>     page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>     http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>

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From shel at principledprofit.com  Sat Sep 28 01:17:15 2019
From: shel at principledprofit.com (Shel Horowitz)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 21:17:15 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] The Other Job Fair
In-Reply-To: <41dc2d1a-032b-b40d-e3e2-094001f3e460@otherrealm.org>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wo8NhU-TeMZSDmJdTBroON4-H-uZn2YsZgAXkiaJ6wZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKaZwg9dU-p2M5kSWs8smT-4=fNFDqgUREznHmipWRSp6H+tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGs6=wp=-kKc+Gw8+N_nhQ2H1nu0Nyr7X3wKPc2zjwx_PtZY7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1d24ba0-1af8-4166-943f-3b34612025de@otherrealm.org>
 <CAN0-QE7v3LC8j5+Ovx4kSROUe5pfMAZLrK4XrUi76==CFF+tKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <41dc2d1a-032b-b40d-e3e2-094001f3e460@otherrealm.org>
Message-ID: <CADG-Mh1S2tuQio4j8axDv9JYN4nya-vxsUTs5vND8U5bmOe-aw@mail.gmail.com>

The idea of moving people to action via curiosity actually has a name:
Zeigarnik
Effect. It's well-known in the marketing world, especially (but not
exclusively, by a long shot) in the work of Mark Joyner.

BTW, I am Member #11 at River Valley Co-op, which has now grown well past
10,000 members. I always get a kick out of going in there, giving my owner
number, and watching the cashier's jaw drop (especially the time the person
in front of me happened to have a number somewhere around 9700). Of course,
the flip side was that the first few years until the store opened, I had a
coffee mug that essentially cost me $150. But I've been a member of some
food co-op or other almost the entire time since 1975, in DC, Atlanta,
Providence, and the Valley--and have had River Valley and several other
co-ops as well as the Co-op Development Institute as marketing clients over
the years.

Shel Horowitz - "The Transformpreneur"(sm)
________________________________________________
Watch (and please share) my TEDx Talk,
"Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
*http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>**
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>*
(move your mouse to "event videos")

Contact me to bake in profitability while addressing hunger,
poverty, war, and catastrophic climate change

Twitter: @shelhorowitz

* First business ever to be Green America Gold Certified
* Inducted into the National Environmental Hall of Fame

http://goingbeyondsustainability.com
mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com * 413-586-2388
Award-winning, best-selling author of 10 books. Latest:
Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World (co-authored with Jay Conrad Levinson)

_________________________________________________


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:51 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Oh, this text is just some very preliminary thoughts.  I agree that 'job
> fair' is not the best name for it - if anyone has a better name, I'm all
> ears.
>
> I wouldn't use 'holon' in public text without any reference.  The reason
> I used it in this email is because I added a link to more information and I
> really like the concept.  In retrospect, also because using one or two
> obscure terms that have a lot of relevance to the topic on hand makes
> people more engaged in the topic because not knowing something irks you and
> makes you need to find out more (didn't really think about that aspect of
> things at the time, but I think it is often the case, at least for the
> literarily inclined).
>
> I totally agree that using negative condonation is not productive (hence
> why our government is in total stand still).  That is actually the whole
> point of the project ? to get rid of resentment and be more productive.  It
> is really hard to not do it though, and I guess in this context I was
> trying to lay out the case that no one is at fault, it is the system that
> is the problem.
>
> I have been a strong proponent of the worker coop model for a long time
> and am a River Valley and Common Share food coop member (I actually served
> on the board of Common Share Coop a number of years back when it was still
> Amherst Community Coop).
>
> Aaron E-J
> The Other Realm LLChttp://otherrealm.orghttp://theotherrealm.org (Blog)
>
> On 2019-09-27 6:50 AM, Christine Dutton wrote:
>
> Interesting proposal! I recommend some language adjustments to the
> proposal. :
> (a) An alternative term to the term "job fair"
> (b)  An alternative to the term "holon" that is more commonly used
> (c) Changes to this language to form more positive language: "It can
> often result in needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most
> of your time doing things in areas you are not passionate about.  Constantly
> needing to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone
> else who got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing
> and desire to interact with others.  On the other side, someone looking
> to hire the right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading
> through tons of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you
> actually want to hire.  And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly
> needing to turn people down because they are not the right fit feels
> horrible."
>
> Also, there is a lot of knowledge to gain from talking to professionals in
> the worker cooperative and grocery cooperative industries. There is vast
> amounts of knowledge through some organizations and consultants associated
> with these industries.
>
> Regards, An HR & Marketing Consultant
> *Christine Dutton*
> *Dutton Consulting *
> *413-626-6377*
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:38 PM Aaron E-J via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>>             This discussion of the need to work for less than a fair
>> wage got me thinking of an idea I had a while back.  The idea is a kind
>> of 'jobs fair' that would be open to anyone, and anyone who attended would
>> be either guaranteed a job or funding for a startup.  The amount of time
>> that people spend competing for: first a college degree, then a job, then
>> maybe funding for a business idea, is enormous.  It can often result in
>> needing to compromise your moral principles and spend most of your time
>> doing things in areas you are not passionate about.  Constantly needing
>> to be judged and being told that you are not as good as someone else who
>> got the job you wanted, puts a tremendous toll on your wellbeing and desire
>> to interact with others.  On the other side, someone looking to hire the
>> right person has to spend a considerable amount of time wading through tons
>> of applicants before eventually arriving at someone you actually want to
>> hire.  And if you have an ounce of empathy, constantly needing to turn
>> people down because they are not the right fit feels horrible.
>>
>>             The way I conceived of the 'job fair' working would be in
>> two stages.
>>
>>             The first stage would be a sign up and stakeholder gathering
>> phase.  Job seekers would fill out an online form detailing their skills
>> and interests and any ideas for solutions to unsolved problems they had.
>> Employers (worker coops and businesses that agree to not throw their
>> employees under the proverbial bus if the job does not work out) would sign
>> up and agree to employ people to work *with* them and not *for* them.  Business
>> investors and venture capitalists would sign up and work on forming
>> business ideas with people who do not see an existing role with any of the
>> existing business that are hiring.
>>
>>             Then the second stage would be the actual conference where
>> everyone gets to know each other and job seekers and job fillers seek
>> mutual skills and interests.  The people who do not have career goals
>> and skills in line with those being sought, and those with business ideas
>> they are looking to actualize, would work with the business investors and
>> venture capitalists.  Together, they would form new worker cooperative
>> businesses around the solutions previously identified in the first stage
>> that everyone on the table can get behind.  These cooperatives would act
>> as holons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)>, each
>> independent entities, but with the ability to utilize each other's
>> resources to some extent.  There would also be a buffer fund established
>> that all the cooperatives earning a positive income would contribute to and
>> those needing a more income could draw from.  The way the investors
>> would get compensated is that they would be seen as one of the cooperatives.
>> If the investors want to withdraw some of their investment, their
>> financial balance would be negative and therefore a proportion of the
>> buffer fund will go to them.  This siphoning of money to an investor
>> will only continue until a previously agreed upon return on investment is
>> achieved or the person invests more money back into the system.  Because
>> the contribution will only be a portion of the *profit*, if some or all
>> cooperatives are not earning a profit, they will not need to contribute to
>> the buffer.  Obviously exact details will need to be worked out when
>> more people get involved, but that is the general way I am envisioning the
>> financing working.  It may also make sense to involve colleges and
>> others in the education sphere.  They could be seen as business
>> investors.  Although they may not be providing financial support, they
>> can still provide significant resources and as a result have a share of the
>> profit.  However, the exact nature of their compensation would need to
>> be figured out because education is rarely easily quantifiable.
>>
>>             The important point in all this is that people are not
>> competing ? there would be the explicit edict that no one is left out and
>> no one is forced to do things they have no desire to do (of course it may
>> be necessary for some people to do undesired tasks, but these tasks should
>> be for the purpose of fulfilling desired goals).
>>             What do people think of this idea and is anyone interested
>> in working on it with me?  I would not be surprised if we could get some
>> grant funding to get the ball rolling.
>>
>>
>> Aaron E-J
>> The Other Realm LLChttp://otherrealm.orghttp://theotherrealm.org (Blog)
>>
>> On 2019-09-26 2:30 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>
>> Ha! Our replies came in at the same time, Todd. Are you still involved
>> with the Graphic Artists Guild?
>>
>> Deb
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:56 PM Todd LeMieux <todd at toddlemieux.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Great replies, and I completely agree.
>>>
>>> I really haven?t seen this in any other industry outside of creative
>>> services (designers, web developers, photographers, musicians, etc)
>>> ?contests? to get essentially free work (and usually underpaid, for the
>>> ?winner?, if there is any payment involved). It?s just plain wrong.
>>>
>>> Deb, your point is a valid comparison. Imagine having a similar contest
>>> for bookkeeping services, or for legal representation? You get the point.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Todd
>>>
>>> -------------------
>>>
>>> Todd M. LeMieux
>>> 413.237.6869
>>> [Graphic Design + Creative Direction]
>>>
>>> Twitter <http://twitter.com/toddmlemieux>  |  LinkedIn
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddmlemieux/>  |  Facebook
>>> <http://www.facebook.com/toddmlemieux>
>>>
>>> Good Design Will Prevail.? <https://www.behance.net/toddlemieux>
>>>
>>> On September 26, 2019 at 1:43:29 PM, Deborah Chandler via Hidden-discuss
>>> (hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net) wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Jessica,
>>>
>>> I agree with Rich. If your business is a profit-making business which
>>> offers services to help people thrive, then paying for graphic design
>>> services are helping a qualified graphic designer to "thrive".
>>>
>>> What you have proposed is called "spec work", where you are only willing
>>> to pay for a "winning" design. This spec work is frowned upon in the
>>> graphic design industry. Imagine you sit down at a restaurant and you ask
>>> them to serve you 6 different dishes, you try each one, and only pay for
>>> the one you found tasty. You would never do that. Not many professions deal
>>> with this issue the way creatives do. And the Graphic Artists Guild, among
>>> others, speak up about it, have worked on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines
>>> (PEGS) for just these types of issues, and support their members as they
>>> adhere to these industry guidelines.
>>>
>>> You may be unaware of this issue, you may have seen other people do
>>> contests like this and thought it was okay to do. But please be aware that
>>> it is not accepted in our industry, and I for one, kindly request that you
>>> choose to hire a qualified graphic designer and negotiate fees that pay
>>> them a good rate for their good work. If you are not familiar with this
>>> hiring process, how to choose a qualified designer, I am sure there are
>>> many folks here who can help you out with that, and some will be willing to
>>> quote on your project and provide trusted advice on various aspects of the
>>> process through to completion.
>>>
>>> Best on this project,
>>> Deb
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 8:27 AM Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized deck
>>>> of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From hjflood at mediaspectrum.net  Sat Sep 28 13:50:47 2019
From: hjflood at mediaspectrum.net (Harry Flood)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 09:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
Message-ID: <CAAg+yd9SnZpELGza4bv7Ytp6-22T2w5+myHfxuA14nz5yRdaqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Being in the finance field I have worked in several companies where clients
or potential clients were totally happy to have you do development work for
their benefit, after which they'd decide to buy it. Or not. It's a slippery
slope.

Harry

Harry J Flood
CFO, Mediaspectrum, Inc.


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:12 PM B. Kimo Lee via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Greetings HT,
>
> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
> Other Job Fair*.
>
> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>
> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
> a gem.
>
> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>
> Happy Fall,
> Kimo
>
>
>
> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
> eCommerce Development
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 42 South Street, Suite 4
> Milford, NH 03055
> (603) 769-4224
> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
> Aaron,
>
> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>
> Denise
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>
>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance clear
>> https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>
>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>> services:
>>
>>    - Paid work
>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>
>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Kris,
>>>
>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>
>>> Denise
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>
>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>
>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>
>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>
>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>
>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>> list.
>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>


-- 
Harry J Flood
Chief Financial Officer
Mediaspectrum, Inc.
20 Gatehouse Road
Amherst, MA 01002

Office phone: 413.344.2467
Office fax: 413.323.7208
Mobile phone: 413.626.2020
Email: Hjflood at Mediaspectrum.net

Corporate headquarters located at:
Mediaspectrum, Inc.
1688 Meridian Ave., 6th Floor
Miami Beach, FL 33139
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From shel at principledprofit.com  Sat Sep 28 17:15:08 2019
From: shel at principledprofit.com (Shel Horowitz)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 13:15:08 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAAg+yd9SnZpELGza4bv7Ytp6-22T2w5+myHfxuA14nz5yRdaqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CAAg+yd9SnZpELGza4bv7Ytp6-22T2w5+myHfxuA14nz5yRdaqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADG-Mh3uSx15tat_zWW=-UDBfbv2ZMDbsXay96M0+SVNRfjcaQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is one scenario that I keep in mind when I generally turn down
requests for free consulting disguised as proposals. I do put in proposals
for speaking gigs, but for scope-of-consulting, I call it a marketing plan
and I charge for it.

Shel Horowitz - "The Transformpreneur"(sm)
________________________________________________
Watch (and please share) my TEDx Talk,
"Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
*http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>**
<http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809>*
(move your mouse to "event videos")

Contact me to bake in profitability while addressing hunger,
poverty, war, and catastrophic climate change

Twitter: @shelhorowitz

* First business ever to be Green America Gold Certified
* Inducted into the National Environmental Hall of Fame

http://goingbeyondsustainability.com
mailto:shel at greenandprofitable.com * 413-586-2388
Award-winning, best-selling author of 10 books. Latest:
Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World (co-authored with Jay Conrad Levinson)

_________________________________________________


On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 9:50 AM Harry Flood via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Being in the finance field I have worked in several companies where
> clients or potential clients were totally happy to have you do development
> work for their benefit, after which they'd decide to buy it. Or not. It's a
> slippery slope.
>
> Harry
>
> Harry J Flood
> CFO, Mediaspectrum, Inc.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:12 PM B. Kimo Lee via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Greetings HT,
>>
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
>> Other Job Fair*.
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
>> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
>> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
>> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>>
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>>
>>
>>
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>
>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>> services:
>>>
>>>    - Paid work
>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>
>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kris,
>>>>
>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>
>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>> list.
>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>
>
>
> --
> Harry J Flood
> Chief Financial Officer
> Mediaspectrum, Inc.
> 20 Gatehouse Road
> Amherst, MA 01002
>
> Office phone: 413.344.2467
> Office fax: 413.323.7208
> Mobile phone: 413.626.2020
> Email: Hjflood at Mediaspectrum.net
>
> Corporate headquarters located at:
> Mediaspectrum, Inc.
> 1688 Meridian Ave., 6th Floor
> Miami Beach, FL 33139
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>
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From info at yesexactly.com  Sat Sep 28 18:35:27 2019
From: info at yesexactly.com (Tess Gadwa)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 11:35:27 -0700
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Graphic design contest for a card deck
In-Reply-To: <CAAg+yd9SnZpELGza4bv7Ytp6-22T2w5+myHfxuA14nz5yRdaqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJELc3GaVaSJQpV0G+P4X1bCxsm9e4Lu6goBcB8nY3CCJnvUBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87d9a33b-106c-5710-2546-6c555bdcc85e@on-the-net.com>
 <CAOLQaWUdwfiu2GWc=baZ6g_cNEg6PH_N3_C3s0fASeLCWCQNAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGw+h+iyMAHBb7ZYqRY9+ighA170Lvemt1Lw4YmWYof9oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADSHD3srfVk7xhh-NyNqiOW7qAeCuTX=4oWEvDURBCtcA_RvmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJn0ZGzhh80=KWJB4o7JbR=kZZfc9cLarGBz5jn73ogfj8P8dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <236919A6-4B57-41E0-B624-34E5AF3762B7@azurelink.com>
 <CAAg+yd9SnZpELGza4bv7Ytp6-22T2w5+myHfxuA14nz5yRdaqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJVQcv+iJjxAgeUwVRuDh_ut_vCufzp58zxeAEnSG=0jusn3g@mail.gmail.com>

But of course, that gets built into your pricing.

That is more the advertising agency model of doing things. In my view, it's
inefficient.

On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 8:13 AM Harry Flood via Hidden-discuss <
hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:

> Being in the finance field I have worked in several companies where
> clients or potential clients were totally happy to have you do development
> work for their benefit, after which they'd decide to buy it. Or not. It's a
> slippery slope.
>
> Harry
>
> Harry J Flood
> CFO, Mediaspectrum, Inc.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:12 PM B. Kimo Lee via Hidden-discuss <
> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>
>> Greetings HT,
>>
>> Interesting discussion going on. Also following the parallel thread about *The
>> Other Job Fair*.
>>
>> I think there is a place for this type of Graphic Design Contest ? design
>> students looking to build a portfolio, or people just starting out with the
>> same goal. I submitted quite a few pieces back when I was in school during
>> the late 70?s and actually ?won" several. Good to have printed samples.
>>
>> Of course most times, you get what you pay for ? but occasionally you get
>> a gem.
>>
>> At agencies I?ve worked at, we often would develop creative concepts for
>> campaigns which were technically ?on spec? but these were for new business
>> pitches for national clients. If we won the account, it would pay off in a
>> big way. We had a budget allocated for this type of spec work.
>>
>> Happy Fall,
>> Kimo
>>
>>
>>
>> AZURELINK  ::  ?Creative Design Technologies"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web Site Design & Scalable, Managed Web Hosting
>> Joomla! Content Management System Implementation
>> eCommerce Development
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 42 South Street, Suite 4
>> Milford, NH 03055
>> (603) 769-4224
>> For more information, please visit: www.azurelink.com
>> Follow Azurelink on Twitter: http://twitter.com/azurelink
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 4:15 PM, Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> This is a GREAT template to go by!!
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:56 PM Aaron Taylor-Waldman <
>> aaron at taylorwaldman.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Arts) has made their stance
>>> clear https://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work
>>>
>>> When it comes to work-for-hire, I offer these options for creative
>>> services:
>>>
>>>    - Paid work
>>>    - Pro bono (or volunteering) ? for cause work only, and no more than
>>>    20% of my annual work hours.
>>>    - Personal projects (The only person who gets 'free' work is me)
>>>
>>> Equity may be an option for some, sure?but 90% of the time you should
>>> take the money. Unless you're a cofounder of a company, and/or the equity
>>> offer is from a startup with a valuation and funding (not bootstrapping).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:34 PM Denise Batalha via Hidden-discuss <
>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kris,
>>>>
>>>> I've always likened the idea of these skills being too easy to be paid
>>>> their worth as being seen as simple as coloring. What I don't get is if
>>>> they clearly see these skills as so simplified it requires little to no
>>>> pay, why don't they just do it themselves? I am, by no means, implying that
>>>> is the case here. Good/great designers cost money, and I completely
>>>> understand the overwhelming weight of the costs any organization, or
>>>> individual lacking the funds, can be.
>>>>
>>>> Denise
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:05 PM kris badertscher via Hidden-discuss <
>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a media and communications/graphic designer, I found this *contest*
>>>>> to be incredibly disrespectful to the ever-expanding community of pioneer
>>>>> valley creatives who so often have to go against their better judgement and
>>>>> take work either pro bono (hoping that it leads to paid a gig), for barter,
>>>>> or for slave-wage labor just in order to pay a bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> This cultivated western Massachusetts mentality of bargaining for free
>>>>> or underpaid labor predominates in this region where creative workers are
>>>>> consistently being taken advantage of because so few opportunities present
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it's photography, video, graphic design, or another skilled
>>>>> creative endeavor, other professionals in the Valley seem to think that
>>>>> these skills require nothing more than just a press of a button. Or maybe
>>>>> they do know and understand that having a subscription to Adobe or
>>>>> Microsoft products or other applications, plus equipment and training in
>>>>> order to make their designs for clients are outrageously expensive and they
>>>>> don't care. Because right, there's always the bounty of students to hire
>>>>> willing to put up with unpaid labor early in their careers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This mindset hurts all of us. We all then have to accept underpaid
>>>>> labor as an exploited community in order to survive, never mind
>>>>> *thrive*. What results is that no one outside the creative community
>>>>> gets a sense of what a project *actually* costs which repeats this
>>>>> unethical cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Living in the age of wanting something for (nearly) nothing is doing
>>>>> everyone a disservice and my recommendation is to first research the market
>>>>> and know how much a particular job costs. And please consider the cost- not
>>>>> just of what you are offering in exchange for labor or products, but the
>>>>> cost to all of us who live with the consequences of that mindset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Kris
>>>>>
>>>>> sustainabilitydesigner.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 12:36 PM Rich at OTN via Hidden-discuss <
>>>>> hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that that amounts for barely 4 hours of a reasonable
>>>>>> wage for a graphic artist
>>>>>> and that only goes to the winner -- really doesn't sound in line with
>>>>>> your company name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd hope to see something more, maybe at least a percent of sales
>>>>>> OR just hire an artist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about it.
>>>>>> On 9/20/2019 6:37 AM, Jessica Gifford via Hidden-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running a design contest for the back and box of a customized
>>>>>> deck of *Connection Cards*, which are used in a program that helps
>>>>>> participants get to know new people, build social connections, and develop
>>>>>> friendships. Each card has a question that participants answer as part of
>>>>>> the program. There will be a $150 prize for the winning design. You
>>>>>> may email jessica at growingwellness.life for entry guidelines. Please
>>>>>> pass along to anyone who may be interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jessica Gifford, LICSW
>>>>>> www.growingwellness.life
>>>>>> 413-548-4688
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.netHidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this because you are on the Hidden-Tech Discussion
>>>>> list.
>>>>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
>>>>> page on the Hidden Tech Web site.
>>>>> http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
>>>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>>>
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>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
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>>
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>> If you would like to change your list preferences, Go to the Members
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>>
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>
>
> --
> Harry J Flood
> Chief Financial Officer
> Mediaspectrum, Inc.
> 20 Gatehouse Road
> Amherst, MA 01002
>
> Office phone: 413.344.2467
> Office fax: 413.323.7208
> Mobile phone: 413.626.2020
> Email: Hjflood at Mediaspectrum.net
>
> Corporate headquarters located at:
> Mediaspectrum, Inc.
> 1688 Meridian Ave., 6th Floor
> Miami Beach, FL 33139
> _______________________________________________
> Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: http://www.hidden-tech.net
> Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
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From alfrednutile at gmail.com  Mon Sep 30 19:45:45 2019
From: alfrednutile at gmail.com (Alfred Nutile)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 15:45:45 -0400
Subject: [Hidden-tech] Python devs needed
Message-ID: <CALpppRgoZ01kCwTOhYREev=a=07WwzhN-G7uVxjNaqA7Yr2YtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello
I am looking for Python devs for full time contract work. This work will
focus on using AWS SAM to create serverless applications.
A lot of the AWS is done for you so what we are looking for is Python devs
that know how to write well tested code.

Just contact me alfrednutile at gmail.com with ?Python Dev? in subject with
you TZ and rate.

Thanks
Al
-- 
Al Nutile
http://alfrednutile.info/about
413.230.4767
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