Fwd: [Hidden-tech] Question about list topics

Michael Muller michael at mullertech.com
Tue Jan 23 01:25:46 EST 2007


Thank you for raising the topic Mary. I was going to comment on the "web design..." thread.  I didn't want to sound callous by saying "well, this is all well and good, but did anyone actually take up their request? Shall we stand around and talk about whether the IRS should or shouldn't give us credit for this volunteer work while the potential client stands by, arms getting weary of being held out?"  I'd offer them help, but I'm stretched pretty thin as it is (already averaging about 10 - 15 volunteer hrs a week). I don't have time for another free project right now.

Being the owner / operator of a few community / communication sites I can sympathize with Rich's concerns below. I am thankful that the finger has been lighter lately, because, personally, I always tend to err on the side of self-regulation rather than top-down heavy handedness when moderating lists. As long as everyone knows the rules and are simply reminded of it now and then, the list can be a good thing when it's free. And, as he says, both the delete key and filters are there to make your job easier of managing the list traffic. There have been several times in the past month when I almost left the list, but then a topic comes up that interests me and I decide to deal with the other 80% I'm not interested in. Bless filters.

Regarding sending reaffic to the website to continue conversation: my experience is that the website forums will never get off the ground if this list exists. Like water and electricity, people will always flow through the path of least resistance, and therefore, email being the killer app and ease-of-use tool that it is, the list will always be the chosen route of conversation. People would rather drop the topic than move it to a website, even if the website is the better tool in the long run.

To back this up I present Exhibit A: www.FiveCol-Soc.net. This website originated from a mailing list called umass-soc at umassp.edu which was a high traffic freecycle / HT type of chat list. Minimum 20 messages a day if there was no gossip or politics or other hot topic... then it could bloom (yes, like algea) to 50 or more a day.  The list admin repeatedly scolded people for infractions, reminding them that politics, religion, etc., were not cool. I set up the website with areas specific for the hot-topic, and opened it up to the list to join. Only ten people joined, posted maybe a dozen posts over a week, and then it lay dormant for nine months, despite the admin's repeated adminishments. Finally, in December of 2003, when I someone posted an off-color Santa Claus joke, the admin had run out of staff and time to deal with the list and announced it would be permanently shut down in a week. I posted the invitation to the website again and in 24 hours over 100 people joined the site. It's been going strong ever since (at 1300 now), and traffic stays at about 20 or so messages a day. Since the bar is a little higher to post or reply (ie; no more from the hip, off the cuff email blasts) only the cream tends to get posted and conversation is kept to a minimum. Perhaps it's my software, or perhaps it's the requirement that people log in every time they want to post. Who knows. But the fact is that if both tools exist (website and email) email will always win. You want to have the website forums be more active? Shut down this list.

And would that be a tragedy? Maybe it would be, and maybe it wouldn't. I agree that a single-shot list, with nothing more than the subject header to segregate the threads, isn't the most efficient communications device for the multi-threaded, high-member-count situation we're in.  The best would be to have several over-arching topic areas with user-created threads that members can subscribe to. The problem here though is that unless you go to the website you'll miss all the conversation going on. It's more of a "pull" technology, rather than "push" as email is. If it were possible to subscribe to all the new thread "first-posts-only" such that we could be made aware of new conversation topics and choose whether or not to continue subscribing to that conversation... perhaps that would be the best option.

Otherwise we'll all continue holding down shift, down arrow down arrow down arrow, delete.

On the topic of the Doobee Poll.. I wasn't even aware of it. I must have missed that email, or not gone to the website that month, because I would surely have voted in it if I had known. Perhaps we can open the voting again, Rich? If no one voted, perhaps no one knew about it?

Mik




At 07:03 PM 1/22/2007, webmaster wrote:
>   ** The author of this post was a Good Dobee.
>   ** You too can help the group
>   ** Fill out the survey/skills inventory in the member's area.
>   ** If you did, we all thank you.
>
>
>Actually I am glad someone other than me raised this issue, and I'd like
>to post some of the 'official position'.
>
>First there is the details on the web site, to be found at:
>        http://live.hidden-tech.net/
>        Under the Lists menu 
>
>        I am not posting the exact URL so people will know where to find
>        it, the Archive and Archive search is there also.
>
>Second, is the application of that philosophy fairly well stated by Mary below,
>each day and on each email.  
>
>For one, we always allow jobs postings.
>We generally allow announcements for related local groups.
>
>The one thread phase I have not been very happy with having an answer to
>is when postings drag on with 'me also' or start to get into repeating
>debates -- when to stop those is always a judgment call.
>If people think we should cut those off sooner, we will.
>
>AND I have to add that we have been recently fairly lenient for some of
>our oldest members and I think that has been abused with off topic
>requests and topics.  Depending on the response to this posting, we will
>be more strict on that.
>
>We have not had a great response with our effort to move discussions to 
>the forums - I am looking for any suggestions there.
>
>My question to Mary, and others, what basis leads you to:
>   'discard the large majority of hidden-tech messages'
>since I don't think the majority violate our rules.
>
>And a further note, you can get the day's postings as a digest so you 
>get one message per day -- personnally I prefer individual messages.
>
>As a side note - as for clearing your inbox - that is what filters on
>email clients are for.
>
>What are your thoughts ? Please join in ?
>
>Rich the Webmaster (for my staff and the HT Board)
>
>P.S - BTW - No one posted comments on the 'Good Doobie poll' so it stays
>as it is.
>
>
>   Subject: [Hidden-tech] Question about list topics
>      Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:53:00 -0500
>      From: Mary Malmros [1]<malmros at verizon.net>
>        To: [2]hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
>At the risk of starting off a firestorm, I'm going to raise the issue of
>what topics are suitable for this list.  I'll begin with a disclaimer
>that I really don't have a dog in this hunt: I don't have an opinion and
>don't care what the parameters are for hidden-tech list topics.  I
>would, however, like to know just what the parameters are: I discard the
>large majority of hidden-tech messages, and if the consensus is, "It's
>all good," then I'll probably opt out.
>
>The stated purpose of hidden-tech, from the website, is to "beat
>isolation, share business tips, find resources, create alliances, learn
>business skills and alert regional economic planners and technology
>service providers about our presence."  That can be stretched to cover a
>lot of waterfront, including everything I've deleted in the past week.
>However, my sense when joining the list was that this was about
>businesses, and about networking around business needs, resources, ideas
>and challenges rather than personal ones.  Certainly when you're running
>your own business, the lines blur, but...wow, this is going to sound
>really unsympathetic, and like I'm targeting people, but I'm not...I
>wasn't really looking to join a kaffeeklatsch, and I think we've
>wandered somewhat into that territory.  I understand the urge and the
>tendency, when you're active in a forum (even just an active reader), to
>go to that forum with all your questions because the forum is where you
>do a lot of your interacting with people...but my personal sense is that
>the list's purpose becomes diluted when this sort of thing goes on.
>
>So let's hear it: is this just my perception, or have we gotten into a
>bit of a "dear chatters" style at times here?  If so, is that what we
>really want?
>
>--
>Mary Malmros                                    [3]malmros at verizon.net
>        Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
>
>_______________________________________________
>Hidden-discuss mailing list - home page: [4]http://www.hidden-tech.net
>[5]Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>
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>
>--
>Rich Roth
>CEO On-the-net
>
>Bringing you complex online systems since the net was young
>[7]http://www.tnrglobal.com - [8]http://www.on-the-net.com/rr/
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:malmros at verizon.net
>   2. mailto:hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>   3. mailto:malmros at verizon.net
>   4. http://www.hidden-tech.net/
>   5. mailto:Hidden-discuss at lists.hidden-tech.net
>   6. http://www.hidden-tech.net/members
>   7. http://www.tnrglobal.com/
>   8. http://www.on-the-net.com/rr/
>
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Michael Muller
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